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  • Re: UK Politics: Brexit plan rejected; confidence vote table

    watching these 2 videos really riled me up. How can an entire nation be so brain-washed when they were able to withstand brain washing for the last 2000 years? Were there really no sane people out there who proved the pro Brexit ppl wrong? Why has the whole "fake news" slur become so popular in an educated European country?
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    • Re: UK Politics: Brexit plan rejected; confidence vote table

      May PMQ's answers once again turned into ''look, how bad Corbyn is''.
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      • Originally posted by stevyy
        watching these 2 videos really riled me up. How can an entire nation be so brain-washed when they were able to withstand brain washing for the last 2000 years? Were there really no sane people out there who proved the pro Brexit ppl wrong? Why has the whole "fake news" slur become so popular in an educated European country?
        As long as migration, racial dynamics and Islam in general were misrepresented as threats (or at least, dogwhistled) to the general british public by the right-wing media, EU was the first one to blame.
        Moreover, people's anger, resentment with the political class had to be channeled somewhere and EU served as the bogeyman.
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        • The unpopularity of the EU is an almost EU-wide phenomenon. I would assume that the average European does not want to leave the EU but not because he believes in it but because he/she somehow believes that life outside the EU is far worse. Something that remains so far unproven.

          As far as Stevvy's videos... well I will watch them later but calling people who agree with him "people with brains" is a bit narrow-minded.
          jio CHARTS NOW:6/4/2020: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...1#post10374351

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          • Originally posted by stevyy
            watching these 2 videos really riled me up. How can an entire nation be so brain-washed when they were able to withstand brain washing for the last 2000 years? Were there really no sane people out there who proved the pro Brexit ppl wrong? Why has the whole "fake news" slur become so popular in an educated European country?
            Not everyone that disagrees with your point of view is brainwashed.

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            • Originally posted by jio
              The unpopularity of the EU is an almost EU-wide phenomenon. I would assume that the average European does not want to leave the EU but not because he believes in it but because he/she somehow believes that life outside the EU is far worse.
              It's not only the EU, but the whole bureacracy and political class. There's no trust in the traditional political parties and ideologies ever since all of them failed. As long as that is the case people will mostly revert to simplistic authoritarian politics that can offer easy answers for the very complicated issues.
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              • Re: UK Politics: Brexit plan rejected; confidence vote table

                Of course it is. But the problem begins with the EU. Because the democratic deficit present currently in European countries is directly linked to the EU and the way it works. It was designed that way anyway but it cannot continue working that way. The side-effects are numerous and quite obvious and Brexit is only one of them.
                jio CHARTS NOW:6/4/2020: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...1#post10374351

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                • Originally posted by jio
                  Of course it is. But the problem begins with the EU. Because the democratic deficit present currently in European countries is directly linked to the EU and the way it works. It was designed that way anyway but it cannot continue working that way. The side-effects are numerous and quite obvious and Brexit is only one of them.
                  South America and U.S. don't have the EU, yet they are also feeling the masses being increasingly angry and dissatisfied with their bureacracy and the powerful class. EU bureacracy shenanigans look like a humble pie in comparison to a plain sight robbery the authoritarian regimes usually represent.
                  Only the most authoritarian regimes manage to contain and subvert the public sentiment, it feels like China's social credit system might be the ultimate solution for the powerful to keep the public in total control, which can be implemented globally in the nearest future.
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                  • Re: UK Politics: Brexit plan rejected; confidence vote table

                    Mmm I would strongly question that. What you have in the US and Latin America is indeed what you describe- deep dissatisfaction of politics as usual and choosing an alternative road. In the EU that's not what you have. In the EU what you have is inability to choose an alternative road by voting alone so extra actions are needed-hence Brexit and whatever exits both the far right and the far left are advocating. The EU is generally seen as changing the will of the people thus hurting democracy for the benefit of a small number of nations and that is not similar to anything that might be happening in the US or Latin America. Putting them all together just distracts from the reality.
                    jio CHARTS NOW:6/4/2020: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...1#post10374351

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                    • Originally posted by jio
                      Mmm I would strongly question that. What you have in the US and Latin America is indeed what you describe- deep dissatisfaction of politics as usual and choosing an alternative road. In the EU that's not what you have. In the EU what you have is inability to choose an alternative road by voting alone so extra actions are needed-hence Brexit and whatever exits both the far right and the far left are advocating. The EU is generally seen as changing the will of the people thus hurting democracy for the benefit of a small number of nations and that is not similar to anything that might be happening in the US or Latin America.
                      You would be surprised but marginal left and far right advocated for the U.S. to pull out of NAFTA which was one of Trump's selling points, by the way.

                      Originally posted by eurobarometer
                      At European level the majority of respondents up to 64 years of age find that their voice counts in the EU. Conversely, people aged of 65 or more, obviously the retired respondents, are likely to believe that their voice does not count in the EU.
                      Full article: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/at-your-s ... report.pdf
                      So the most dissatisfied groups probably do want to take their countries back to 1950s after all, longing not just for the corporate-controlled neocolonialism that we have at the moment but for proper colonialism as a source of decent living standards in those European countries.
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                      • Actually the number in that research is 48%. And the Eurobarometer is just a statistical service (which tends to always come up with data supportive of the EU. I mean you should give a look at their questionnaire if you haven't already). However if we look at every election (where voters keep dropping) and every election results (where pro-EU parties are steadily being punished) across most of the EU one could argue that either the Eurobarometer is missing something or that nobody told all those satisfied citizens there are elections happening every now and then lol.
                        jio CHARTS NOW:6/4/2020: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...1#post10374351

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                        • Originally posted by jio
                          Actually the number in that research is 48%. And the Eurobarometer is just a statistical service (which tends to always come up with data supportive of the EU. I mean you should give a look at their questionnaire if you haven't already). However if we look at every election (where voters keep dropping) and every election results (where pro-EU parties are steadily being punished) across most of the EU one could argue that either the Eurobarometer is missing something or that nobody told all those satisfied citizens there are elections happening every now and then lol.
                          For like 4 years in a row (2013-2017), Eurobarometer results were actually anti-EU despite the questionnaire, more people were dissatisfied with EU but Brexit provided a shift in this dynamic.
                          And if we dig deeper, there is always a whole chunk of apolitical electorate with no particular views on anything in the UK as well, ever since 20% failed to show up for the ''once in a lifetime'' referendum. I guess, they were not motivated enough to change anything, but we can only speculate.
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                          • Well I doubt Brexit causing a shift in continental public opinion on the EU. It's more likely that other factors affected the shifts you describe (such as better economies and the easing of the refugee crisis). That however does not mean that the Eurobarometer is accurate or that the EU itself is not in crisis anymore. Brexit is not an isolated incident it is just another episode on the ongoing EU crisis IMO.
                            jio CHARTS NOW:6/4/2020: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...1#post10374351

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                            • Originally posted by Wayne
                              Originally posted by stevyy
                              watching these 2 videos really riled me up. How can an entire nation be so brain-washed when they were able to withstand brain washing for the last 2000 years? Were there really no sane people out there who proved the pro Brexit ppl wrong? Why has the whole "fake news" slur become so popular in an educated European country?
                              Not everyone that disagrees with your point of view is brainwashed.
                              I'm not saying that. All I am saying is that the UK suported 95% of all EU laws since 1999... that is a fact. How can some politicians - or the majority today - speak against it, misrepresent it in their narrative and not be called out for it? The Bank of England and many other institutions procalimed that Brexit would not benefit the middle class or low-income population. Why would people not look deeper into things and just vote on the basis of a gut feeling which only came about through lies?
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                              • Re: UK Politics: Brexit plan rejected; confidence vote table

                                Maybe because those politicians and institutions you mention are generally discredited in the eyes of the people?

                                Moreover I seriously doubt that politicians and institutions don't "lie". I mean come on now...
                                jio CHARTS NOW:6/4/2020: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...1#post10374351

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                                • Originally posted by jio
                                  Brexit is not an isolated incident it is just another episode on the ongoing EU crisis IMO.
                                  It surely isn't, I think Italy and Greece would have voted out of the EU given the chance.

                                  [youtube:3qlx3ymc]TAz5ocvAn0U[/youtube:3qlx3ymc]
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                                  • Re: UK Politics: Brexit plan rejected; confidence vote table

                                    Possibly many others too. When was the last time the EU won a referendum somewhere? lol
                                    jio CHARTS NOW:6/4/2020: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...1#post10374351

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                                    • The confidence vote is due to take place in 15 mins.

                                      May is expected to pass, the House is apparently nowhere near full - so there's an absence of drama!

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                                      • Theresa May - No Confidence Vote

                                        Ayes (no confidence): 306
                                        Noes (confidence): 325

                                        She wins.

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                                        • Re: UK Politics: Theresa May wins confidence vote (325-306)

                                          That was quite close.
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                                          • So basically many Tories voted against her yesterday and supported her today, just to avoid elections.
                                            Coherent and democratic indeed.
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                                            • Originally posted by KEY9481
                                              That was quite close.
                                              What makes it worse is that if the DUPís 10 politicians had voted against her, sheíd have lost the confidence vote by 1 vote.

                                              2 of her own MPs either didnít turn up or abstained.

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                                              • Re: UK Politics: Theresa May wins confidence vote (325-306)

                                                it was a waste time right from the start, Tories won't give anyone the power
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                                                • 52% voted in favour of May...

                                                  You couldnít make it up.

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                                                  • Re: UK Politics: Theresa May wins confidence vote (325-306)

                                                    I donít know if Iíd describe it as a win as such
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