Russia and Ukraine

[Artoo]

I would like to know....

You don’t need to know, that’s the point.

The forum rules here are clear and are there to be followed. Anyone found breaching them will be awarded infractions and if enough infractions are obtained may end up banned.

This thread exists in order to discuss the conflict. Anything else is off topic and if we veer off topic, or look to argue between ourselves, the thread can be locked and closed.

It is not for individuals to moderate this forum. If you have a problem with a post then report it, explain why, and a moderator will deal with it.

Now let’s continue discussing the war.

[stevyy]

I also hate UN but for another reason. It is useless and corrupted as sht. UN can not tell and prove to anyone that Russia has a veto. The Soviet Union has that right. And The Soviet Union has 3 votes from it members that "created" it: Russia, Ukraine and Belarus. But when SU collapsed Ukraine and Belarus "re-entered" organization and Russia did not. So UN just leaved that right for russia with no reason! And nowdays irussia is a big income for all that UN, But you are right UN is dead as League of Nation.
Same nazi thing but slightly diffrent decorations... Thats a shame to us like a humankind that even in 21 century is facing with this sht

I never knew that.

Honestly, when the SU fell in 1991... I actually believed that Russia would become a wonderful, new, democratic country. I believed that for about 15 years. I was fed so many lies also by German propaganda. Our chancellor made Putin seem like a normal human being, little did we suspect that Schröder (former chancellor of GER from 1998-2005) was also a corrupt pig who only looked out for himself and the money he could squeeze out of the German GP.

I do wonder what will become of Russia post-Putin and post this war. I know that somehow (but for skewed reasons, my own atrocious country got a 2nd chance and I will be forever grateful to the community of all nations on this planet which allowed this to happen), so will the world act as if nothing happened after the war or will Russia be forced to atone for their crimes.

[GreekGeek]

There’s actually agreed rules between nations that you’re still supposed to adhere to if you go to war.

Yeah i know. However, recent history has showed that almost nobody at war respects those rules. For example, NATO has also used forbidden weapons (cluster bombs, depleted uranium bombs).
The right question would be who respects the rules of war...
"Respect", "rules", "war" in the same sentence is a paradox if not a tragedy.

[GreekGeek]

I do wonder what will become of Russia post-Putin and post this war. I know that somehow (but for skewed reasons, my own atrocious country got a 2nd chance and I will be forever grateful to the community of all nations on this planet which allowed this to happen), so will the world act as if nothing happened after the war or will Russia be forced to atone for their crimes.

The strong ones rarely atone for their crimes...

I believe everybody should get a second chance. In many cases common people hate the decisions the governments make. Maybe with a different government and a change of heart Russia will become normal/friendly again (in a dream world).

There already some people working to reverse all this. I read in a legit Greek site that some athletic federations are considering for the Russian and Belarusian athletes to come back in action because the qualification period for the Olympic Games in 2024 starts is some months away. Maybe that's the right path in order for things to calm down.

Given the current situation, imo, Ukraine and Russia will forever hate each other, just like Cyprus and Turkey or Serbia and the EU/NATO.

P.S.: I pray everyday this Russia vs Ukraine war will not become a Gaza vs Israel situation.

[Artoo]

Allowing Russia to compete in an international competition is not the way towards ending the war. The only way is for Putin to admit defeat or to have him overthrown. The longer this war continues the more damage he does to his country and even if he cannot see that, those around him will.

Russia will lose the war because if they were in a position to win they’d have won it by now. We also cannot underestimate the impact of sanctions, which were always going to take some time to have an impact on the Russian economy.

Politically, Putin is in trouble at home and abroad. The issue is how to unpick the layers of protection he has built around himself. But ultimately Russia will have to take Putin in hand themselves because even if The Ukraine manages to push Russia out of the country completely, that still won’t mean the end of the war.

[stevyy]

Belarus announced today that they would also build up tropps on their border or even also invade Ukraine with Russian forces. I'm not sure what exactly they were announcing today, but it sounded completely demented. But Belarus claims that Ukraine will invade them which is so demented, sorry I have no other term to describe that notion.

Lukaschenko really reminds me of Kim Yong Un now... like... the minute media attention derivated from him and his crimes, he just returns with some crazy new policies that ONLY he thinks are good. Belarus is another country that needs to be taken care of, like sanction the ish out of them too, albeit I feel for the population there as they are completely oppressed and innocent.

Belarus and Russia need to be thrown out of Europe. Like, if it were possible, I would very much like that. It's embarrassing that they are European countries at this point.

[Artoo]

If it were possible to throw countries out of Europe the UK would have been kicked out decades ago

[stevyy]

If it were possible to throw countries out of Europe the UK would have been kicked out decades ago

By definition, I thought that the UK never identified itself as even geographically IN Europe. Don't they refer to France and co as Europe? People with no geo skilles might think the UK was an island in the Pacific or Indian Ocean lol. It's funny that a country like France which never not ever claimed to not be IN Europe actually has oversea departments which belong to France proper which are located in the Americas.

[ferrero]

Allowing Russia to compete in an international competition is not the way towards ending the war. The only way is for Putin to admit defeat or to have him overthrown. The longer this war continues the more damage he does to his country and even if he cannot see that, those around him will.

Russia will lose the war because if they were in a position to win they’d have won it by now. We also cannot underestimate the impact of sanctions, which were always going to take some time to have an impact on the Russian economy.

Politically, Putin is in trouble at home and abroad. The issue is how to unpick the layers of protection he has built around himself. But ultimately Russia will have to take Putin in hand themselves because even if The Ukraine manages to push Russia out of the country completely, that still won’t mean the end of the war.

How is a country with the most number of nuclear heads ever going to lose the war? Russia may lose a few fights, concede a few cities every now and then but they will not lose this war. He has even signed the 4 regions to be under Russia now.

North Korea is poor af but how did they get their nuclear ballistic capabilities?. It's obvious who is helping them acquire this skill and it's not China. North Korea's test of missiles is a display from Russia, telling the West what they will be expecting if they continue to push Russia.

How did you come to the conclusion that Putin is in trouble overseas? He is attending the G20. USA and the West who had threatened to boycott the event are starting to shut up and attend the event. Russia is still engaging in OPEC+,BRICS and SCO. Putin was laughing in toilet when the West threatened to put a price cap on oil sales. He immediately showed u guys the middle finger by getting OPEC+ to reduce oil production by 2 million barrels per day.

History tells us that economic sanctions are never the solution to end the war. and you don't seem to see that there are 2 sides to a coin. Russia may suffer from the economic sanctions but what about EU? We are starting to see businesses folding up/shifting out of EU because of not able to sustain due to high energy prices, causing more and more workers to lose their jobs. More n more people are going on the streets to protest the high inflation.

[stevyy]

How is a country with the most number of nuclear heads ever going to lose the war? Russia may lose a few fights, concede a few cities every now and then but they will not lose this war. He has even signed the 4 regions to be under Russia now.

North Korea is poor af but how did they get their nuclear ballistic capabilities?. It's obvious who is helping them acquire this skill and it's not China. North Korea's test of missiles is a display from Russia, telling the West what they will be expecting if they continue to push Russia.

How did you come to the conclusion that Putin is in trouble overseas? He is attending the G20. USA and the West who had threatened to boycott the event are starting to shut up and attend the event. Russia is still engaging in OPEC+,BRICS and SCO. Putin was laughing in toilet when the West threatened to put a price cap on oil sales. He immediately showed u guys the middle finger by getting OPEC+ to reduce oil production by 2 million barrels per day.

History tells us that economic sanctions are never the solution to end the war. and you don't seem to see that there are 2 sides to a coin. Russia may suffer from the economic sanctions but what about EU? We are starting to see businesses folding up/shifting out of EU because of not able to sustain due to high energy prices, causing more and more workers to lose their jobs. More n more people are going on the streets to protest the high inflation.

A very negative view on things. I'd rather starve and let Europe crumble and become a 3rd world continent instead of giving in to Russia. If Europe goes under, so does the global economy. Eurppe has a nominal GDP of $20 trillion. The US and China and every other nation cannot NOT sell their products to the richest continent of 700 million people.

I hope Europe stays strong and fights this till the end, whatever the end may look like.

[Zeph]

franklex Totally appreciate your input being how you are living this nightmare every minute of every
hour of the day. It’s one thing to read an article or watch a news report but there is a certain bias or censorship associated with those. Reading your words; your frustration and angst is raw and real.

For others who envision Ukraine as engaging on the offensive you are terribly mistaken as they are defending their people, their land and their independence of which Putin has no bearings.

Today’s attacks and casualties in an area many Ukrainians who still remained or at the least, felt
was spared to an extent, Putin went all out. You can’t justify the brutality and crimes against humanity that Putin and his armies are engaging. Raping sisters, mothers and grandmothers while mutilating brothers, fathers and grandfathers is inhumane. This wouldn’t have happened under Trump and there is good reason why. It’s time for America and the world to hold the mad man accountable.

[Artoo]

How is a country with the most number of nuclear heads ever going to lose the war?

Putin won’t use them. Russia is nothing without the threat of nuclear war. Like all bullies Putin uses the threat of nuclear engagement to intimidate, but it isn’t working: his war has actually increased NATO membership which was one of the things he was fighting against in the first place.

It’s widely accepted North Korea got the information and means to create nuclear weapons from Pakistan. North Korea will not enter into nor start a conflict - all North Korea cares about is North Korea’s survival. North Korea’s recent activity is most likely a response to any perceived weakness seen following the mass covid-19 outbreak there - which they recently claimed recently to have recovered from.

How did you come to the conclusion that Putin is in trouble overseas?

141 United Nations member states voted for a resolution demanding Russia withdrawn from The Ukraine. That’s the majority of the world publicly declaring themselves to be politically against Russia, it’s war and it’s aims in The Ukraine. Diplomacy matters though and a country can be against Russia and still maintain a dialogue with them - Macron, for example, has spoken to Putin but is very much against Russia’s war.

Russia may suffer from the economic sanctions but what about EU? We are starting to see businesses folding up/shifting out of EU because of not able to sustain due to high energy prices

Putin expected to win the war within a matter of days, and for it all to be over before Europe had a chance to react. He did not anticipate the level of international response, such as the level of sanctions nor the mass withdrawal of global brands from Russia. To downplay the impact on the Russian economy is to fail to underestimate the long term implications.

Russia is not exclusively to blame for high energy prices - high energy prices have existed since 2021, growing steadily since late 2020. A number of energy suppliers in the UK, for example, closed in 2021 because of untenable wholesale market prices over six months before Putin invaded. They remain high because demand for energy from non-Russian sources has increased, but these prices will eventually drop as supply chains are re-established and stabilised.

[ferrero]

his war has actually increased NATO membership which was one of the things he was fighting against in the first place.

NATO was declared as brain dead before the war and will be declared as brain dead once again after the escalation.

141 United Nations member states voted for a resolution demanding Russia withdrawn from The Ukraine. That’s the majority of the world publicly declaring themselves to be politically against Russia, it’s war and it’s aims in The Ukraine. Diplomacy matters though and a country can be against Russia and still maintain a dialogue with them - Macron, for example, has spoken to Putin but is very much against Russia’s war.

I am not going to say Putin is in trouble overseas because of an UN vote though. UN vote barely carries any weight anyway as most has mentioned. Russia is still engaging in international activities. Diplomacy is definitely the key to ending this, not sanctions. And it's obvious USA has to come in. Right now they won't because of the money they are making off Europe. USA has literally succeeded in making Europe dependent on them for energy and military weapons now.

Putin expected to win the war within a matter of days, and for it all to be over before Europe had a chance to react. He did not anticipate the level of international response, such as the level of sanctions nor the mass withdrawal of global brands from Russia. To downplay the impact on the Russian economy is to fail to underestimate the long term implications.

Russia is not exclusively to blame for high energy prices - high energy prices have existed since 2021, growing steadily since late 2020. A number of energy suppliers in the UK, for example, closed in 2021 because of untenable wholesale market prices over six months before Putin invaded. They remain high because demand for energy from non-Russian sources has increased, but these prices will eventually drop as supply chains are re-established and stabilised.

Nobody can win a war within a matter of days USA failed to take down Afghanistan after 10 years. Also I am not downplaying anything. You are choosing to be selective when it comes to assessment of economy impact from the sanction for both ends. The last quarter of the year will be interesting. I guess we shall see.

[GreekGeek]

Allowing Russia to compete in an international competition is not the way towards ending the war.

I didn't say that an international competition will end this war but that it's a step into the right direction because maybe through athletism a door opens for dialogue. It may also result in a much worse situation. Nobody knows the outcome.

Putin expected to win the war within a matter of days, and for it all to be over before Europe had a chance to react. He did not anticipate the level of international response, such as the level of sanctions nor the mass withdrawal of global brands from Russia. To downplay the impact on the Russian economy is to fail to underestimate the long term implications.

I don't recall Putin saying that Ukraine was a matter of days and we aren't able to know what's in his mind. Iirc, an American general said that a small country would fall in 72 hours some days before the invasion and his words were misinterpreted heavily... Ukraine isn't a small country. Imo and given Putin's actions, he expected such strong international response.

[aRat]

Putin having to drag an impoverished failed state like Belarus into the war in another pathetic move in dimnishing Russia's "strong" image. It's basically admitting that they are sooo bad that they need the help of one of the most corrupt, poor and miserable countries on earth to try and beat Ukraine

[stevyy]

Some international institutions are saying now, that Russia is depleting its missiles and bombs and cannot sustain this war of the air for much longer. I'd love seeing Russia running out of military material.

Queen France is threatening Belarus with sanctions. My God, Mon Dieu, I am so here for that. France really is the Queen of Europe at the moment. I love how self-confident and awesome France has been in this war. They are the de facto EU leaders now.

IF only my own country would be competent enough to join La France and other major EU players in order to put Putin in his place.

[franklex]

You don’t need to know, that’s the point.

The forum rules here are clear and are there to be followed. Anyone found breaching them will be awarded infractions and if enough infractions are obtained may end up banned.
....
Now let’s continue discussing the war.

I dont think that rules of forum does not let me to give a question about who is come from... What for them we have field location in our profiles??? if it is not the point to know where someone is come from xD Of course none should tell its orign as well none can ban curiosity.
And I wasnt asking it I just supported a question of another member, in fact.

[franklex]

Belarus announced today that they would also build up tropps on their border or even also invade Ukraine with Russian forces. I'm not sure what exactly they were announcing today, but it sounded completely demented. But Belarus claims that Ukraine will invade them which is so demented, sorry I have no other term to describe that notion.

It doesn't matter for Ukraine now, On Febth Ukraine did not expect and was not prepared for invasion via Belarus. Now Ukraine is prepared on that front. So if Lukashenko decides to join (what is found unreal) they will move there like russians near Bakhmut. It is in an eye of AFU and they know what to do. It will not change the sittuation for Putin.
And I bet that animal like Lukashenko whos talent is to sit on two or three chairs will do it even when Putin will not exists )) And he knows that joining the war it is an end for him. For now he knows he can be not welcomed, denonced by world but not dead. And he will try to keep it this way.

[franklex]

Yeah i know. However, recent history has showed that almost nobody at war respects those rules. For example, NATO has also used forbidden weapons (cluster bombs, depleted uranium bombs).
The right question would be who respects the rules of war...
"Respect", "rules", "war" in the same sentence is a paradox if not a tragedy.

Just wonder can you name when NATO sends 80 missiles into a cities streets or to playgrounds or city offices??? And this is just in a day... Or when anyone US or NATO or who else you dont like, but of course not Russia, occupied a nuclear power plant and make a military base there???

[ferrero]

Once in a while it's nice to revisit history

2011 military intervention in Libya - Wikipedia

NATO bombing of Yugoslavia - Wikipedia

[franklex]

I believe everybody should get a second chance. In many cases common people hate the decisions the governments make. Maybe with a different government and a change of heart Russia will become normal/friendly again (in a dream world).

Good point but Russia has already many chances... I dont think that anyone smat will else try to do it again. They will not change they do not care about war unless it takes them personally. They have no reason to change something and they did not do it for last DECADES while everything was more or less ok. But in a dream world it could happened.

There already some people working to reverse all this. I read in a legit Greek site that some athletic federations are considering for the Russian and Belarusian athletes to come back in action because the qualification period for the Olympic Games in 2024 starts is some months away. Maybe that's the right path in order for things to calm down.

I guess I know who are those people, probably Elon Mask and Amnesty International.... This is just a same action. Lets say that nothing happened and start from sport later say transfer it into economy and later even into politics... Very smart. This definatly will calm war down if you let atlets wear "Z" symbol or wear a map with 5 regions of Ukraine on russian uniform.... After Olympics in Russia we may know that the sport of Russia is a part of Kremlin.

Given the current situation, imo, Ukraine and Russia will forever hate each other, just like Cyprus and Turkey or Serbia and the EU/NATO.

Ukraine will not hate Russia when they will just fk off from us. And repair all that damage. To much honor for it... to hate it all of the time. We would love just to forget it exists.

[franklex]

franklex This wouldn’t have happened under Trump and there is good reason why. It’s time for America and the world to hold the mad man accountable.

I dont think Trump would stop it somehow. Same as Obama and even Joe which were saying to Putin what US will not do and allow him to be not afraid of some actions. I think US should revisit its politics. But that the case of americans. They will response for their president like russians for russian president and ukrainians for their president.

[franklex]

NATO was declared as brain dead before the war and will be declared as brain dead once again after the escalation.

Thats becouse there are so much corrupted by some intrests from Russia, I mean members like Hungary, Turkey, Germany, Spain, Greece, Italy...
Those did nothing at all for a long time when it started while whole others who is ever deal with russia started inmidiatly helping Ukraine with weapons on their own: Lithuania, Estonia, Poland, Slovakia, Czechia, Lativa and so on.
NATO is not dead it just contain some dead members. Finally Ukraine woke up some of them.

[stevyy]

Thats becouse there are so much corrupted by some intrests from Russia, I mean members like Hungary, Turkey, Germany, Spain, Greece, Italy...
Those did nothing at all for a long time when it started while whole others who is ever deal with russia started inmidiatly helping Ukraine with weapons on their own: Lithuania, Estonia, Poland, Slovakia, Czechia, Lativa and so on.
NATO is not dead it just contain some dead members. Finally Ukraine woke up some of them.

Germany is the 6th or 7th biggest supporter of the Ukraine since the war broke out. Germany's 1st step was to halt and not greenlight the use of NordStream 2. But then our worst chancellor since 1949 froze, was stale and a sissy for a month.

[stevyy]

Oh i found this: https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-a...eLevel=not-set

01 - ca 53 bn € - USA
02 - ca. 13 bn € - UK
03 - ca 7 bn € - Germany
04 - ca. 7 bn € - Canada
05 - ca. 7 bn € - Poland
06 - ca 3 bn € - Norway
07 - ca 3 bn € - France
08 - ca 3 bn € - Japan
09 - ca 3 bn € - Austria
10 - ca 3 bn € - Netherlands