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  • Jordi, it's a matter of interests and political power in the EU. I don't really disagree with any of the examples you gave but Ukraine's problem (besides the fact that it is not even a candidate state and its main EU claim is that it has sacrificed itself in the name of the EU, which is anyway a lie) is that it is simply too big and too poor meaning that it will flood the EU with migrants, drain EU funds and exert considerable power in EU institutions, especially in alliance with Poland. Those are real disadvantages. Besides that we are going in circles, We will see what happens. My prediction is that it will never become a NATO member, it will soon become an EU candidate and stuck in that status for decades to come, just like Turkey.

    EDIT: It has actually became candidate this year after the war began, I kinda forgot it
    Last edited by jio; Tue November 15, 2022, 00:03.
    jio CHARTS NOW: 8/2/2023: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...3#post11074063

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    • Originally posted by franklex View Post

      No it doesnt. We do needed reforms and democratization process. Not that fast and great but we ar on the track.As well as Poland they made same path and not in a few months.



      This is just insane. Your sentance means you do know nothing about Ukraine. Ukraine wanted to join EU even before Russian war. Since 2008 EU-Ukraine were making negotiations about how, why, etc... And even bfore war it was arugument to join Ukraine. Thre were basic plan but there happened Russia in 2013. Which responsible you are compleatly ignore.


      This, you are saying just because of your regional location. I bet that Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Czech Rpublik and Sllovakia will not agree on that point and find that Ukrain should have a priority. ven I would add to that list Finland and Romania and Bulgaria.
      Priority... in this case it is not the same as priority when you are boarding on the plane to take best seats. Balkans have no any war and do not depending on it lik Ukraine thatnks to Russia. If russia would not do all of it Ukrain could slowly do its homwork and b on the waiting list likeTurkey.


      By this point Greece should go out of the EU in 2008...


      What will you say if lets say tomorrow Russia which has a border with Poland will lts say that some polish lands voted for indepandence with 87% agres to join Russia and Putin will join that lands??? Ukraine has no neighbourhood disputes. That is russia can not decide where its borders today they say one thing anothr day they will say that the Moon is a part of Russia. So it is again not a problm of Ukraine (russia recognized Ukrainian borders many times in diffrent documents) it is a problem of Russia they do not follow thir own words and agreements.


      This is russia put Ukrain in such position. And Ukrain not comparison with Turkey.


      U are saying like a typical russian that are denying that Ukraine is an subject and its nation have its own will. But you mak an object from Ukraine that decides nothing and just belong to Russia, menthaly or in anothr way. And this is not respectable.
      Franklex, I am not Russian and don't express Russian opinions, I am saying what I think and I am sorry if you dont like it because you are Ukrainian. I am on Ukraine's side in this war btw but I do think that your country is ground for a proxy war as well. First of all I don't talk about the western Balkans just because of my location, they are negotiating EU accession for years, Ukraine was only declared a candidate country in June, that's not opinion, it's a fact. Your referendum point is mute, I do not support Russia in this at all so I don't need to answer the obvious. Adding to that, Cyprus is actually half-occupied so why would I support Russia? That said, I do think it's unrealistic that Ukraine (or Cyprus for that matter) will take back all its lands, it simply won't. And just for truth's sake, it was never suggested that Greece should leave the EU, Grexit was referring to exit from the Eurozone, and not the EU as a whole (like the UK did for example).
      jio CHARTS NOW: 8/2/2023: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...3#post11074063

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      • I am not saying that u r russian. But your points are in around with pro-russians. You do not give a solution. And give any reeasons why others should not care about Ukraine. You just do not care about Ukraine as I asume. You suggest or provide just to kep ukrainians alone with russians so they could easly kill, rape, torture and genocide us. You find any reasons why others should not help us and do not give any real solution instead.

        So this is not about weathr I like your opinion or not, at the end your opinion do not give any suggestion for me as for ukrainian it gives only death becouse I was born in poor country that borders russia. Great dude, very human.

        If you are really on th side of Ukraine you may undrstand one thing - if Ukrain will stop fighting it will stop exists (and ukrainians will fallen after out country), but if Russia will stop its war things become normal. So try to suggest what russia should do first and how make russiareally doing what it agrees on instead of talking about how poor Ukrain is. Germany in 1945 also was destroyed.

        WHAT A PROXY WAR??? We have no your soilders on our lands we are fighting on our own. With th wstern weapons, by the way not the bstones with those from 80s... Wher is here proxy war??? If I use iphon it is also counts lik a proxy wa??? W have no any military base of the West, no any firejet where do you se it?? And again this pro-russian point that we (russians) are fighting with whole NATO and ven whol globe becouse Ukraine we already defeatd.

        Also about facts, Ukraine was only declared a candidate country in June, you are rifght. But Russia tried to stop Ukraine's joining since 2013, when our pro-russian president did not signd up EU asosiation agreement and right vry that moment russia to cut-off Crimea and Donbas to stop Ukraine from joining EU. So once again if Russia would stay away we would be like balkans, noone of them should intgrat and do reforms and fight at war at the same time for 9 years already. So comparison of Balkans with Ukraine is very wrong.

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        • I do think it's unrealistic that Ukraine (or Cyprus for that matter) will take back all its lands, it simply won't.
          Yes but AFU (Armed Force of Ukraine) are not agreed with you.

          this is for 9 months. I find it is not bad result for poor country...


          Ukraine can not be comaprising with Cyprus. I find Cyprus should be discussed on other thread. Greece provoked last "war" on Cyprus, even leaved NATO to show its protest but nothning changed sinc then, greek sittuation become much worse after Greece decided to change rules on Cyprus. In Ukraine, ukrainians "provoke" russia to start their actions, which is not the case coz they startd their actions much before 2013... So this cases not similar.

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          • About daily mail article etc...
            Our Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine said this on his telegram:

            We will fight as long as we can. Our goal is to liberate all Ukrainian land from Russian occupation. We do not stop on this path under any circumstances. The Ukrainian military does not accept any negotiations, agreements or compromise decisions. There is only one condition for negotiations - Russia must leave all captured territories.
            And this man is as much popular in Ukraine as Zelensky which btw put him in charge of AFU. This is what i tried to said ukrainians will agree on any "Minsk agreement". We will take our lands back.

            His post (ukrainian): - https://t.me/CinCAFU/311
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            • The United Nations General Assembly has approved a resolution calling for Russia to be held accountable for violating international law by invading Ukraine. The consequences recommended included paying reparations for the damage and loss of life during the war.

              https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/...ons-to-ukraine
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              • And that what I said about Daily mail, Zelnsky will say what people in Ukraine think:

                G20: Zelenskiy calls for 'just' end to Ukraine war, with no compromises.

                https://www.theguardian.com/world/vi...s-russia-video

                Ukraine is ready to talk after Russia will leave occupied therithories of Ukraine.
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                  • Originally posted by franklex View Post
                    I do think it's unrealistic that Ukraine (or Cyprus for that matter) will take back all its lands, it simply won't.
                    Yes but AFU (Armed Force of Ukraine) are not agreed with you.

                    this is for 9 months. I find it is not bad result for poor country...


                    Ukraine can not be comaprising with Cyprus. I find Cyprus should be discussed on other thread. Greece provoked last "war" on Cyprus, even leaved NATO to show its protest but nothning changed sinc then, greek sittuation become much worse after Greece decided to change rules on Cyprus. In Ukraine, ukrainians "provoke" russia to start their actions, which is not the case coz they startd their actions much before 2013... So this cases not similar.
                    Sorry man but what you wrote are historic nonsense based on a selective view of history. I will excuse you due to the state your country is in but I do not wish any further diacussion with you on the subject since you are clearly completely uneducated on world affairs or at least on this one.
                    jio CHARTS NOW: 8/2/2023: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...3#post11074063

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                    • Maybe, I am seletive. Same as yor look at Ukrain as a colony of Russia or whatever.

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPxy...ngsandGenerals
                      I do not want to talk about Cyprus-Greece-Turkey. I found it is a way diffrent case. According to video I saw about Cyprus it is a way diffrent for me. Thing that I agree is that war in Cyprus was a wrong way to solve that case.
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                        • This war is so far away from ceasing... 100 missile attacks today...
                          https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/11...e-war-news-g20
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                          • ​​​​​People will get panicked tomorrow here in Poland...

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                            • Originally posted by GreekGeek View Post
                              This war is so far away from ceasing... 100 missile attacks today...
                              https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/11...e-war-news-g20
                              Yes, but most of them shot down thankfully:

                              According to Kyrylo Tymoshenko, deputy head of President Zelensky’s office, Russia launched over 90 missiles, of which 73 were shot down.
                              (BBC)
                              I have a bad feeling about this.

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                              • If missiles hit Poland, I hope NATO and Poland will only respond in words. Maybe some sort of new sanctions could be an answer or literally anything else, but military intervention.

                                I feel devastated that 2 people died. Maybe Poland can sue Russia in The Hague for war crimes directly as it has probably (if confirmed) attacked Poland.
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                                • Originally posted by arab View Post


                                  ​​​​​People will get panicked tomorrow here in Poland...
                                  It sounds like an accident. Putin has no reason to be bombing Poland and I doubt he’ll do it again. He does not want war with NATO - he can’t even win a war in the Ukraine.

                                  The question is whether he’ll deny it or apologise for it, and we still cannot rule out a third party trying to start something bigger - those gas pipes did not blow themselves up and I’m not convinced it was Russia.
                                  I have a bad feeling about this.

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                                  • Originally posted by Artoo View Post

                                    It sounds like an accident. Putin has no reason to be bombing Poland and I doubt he’ll do it again. He does not want war with NATO - he can’t even win a war in the Ukraine.

                                    The question is whether he’ll deny it or apologise for it, and we still cannot rule out a third party trying to start something bigger - those gas pipes did not blow themselves up and I’m not convinced it was Russia.
                                    I agree and I hope the situation gets resolved. It's still a mystery to me who blew up the pipelines.

                                    It is so fascinating to see Russian troops in general be so unsuccessful at war when that is what Russia's entire power-play in the world is based on. I read that Putin is now becoming more and more unpopular in Russia. I pray that this war will be over by apring of 2023.
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                                    • Firing 100+ rockets just like that "is no accident".
                                      We already saw a rocket landing in Moldova (thankfully, no one did because of it) - now, RuZZia attacked Poland "by accident"?

                                      Who are they trying to fool around? - Either RuZZia is "trying to save civilizians" or they have no control about their rockets and just start firing them because they are not valueing human life at all.

                                      NATO needs to respond - Poland needs to respond.

                                      Thatīs already the "2nd accident" (+ countless bombings of kindergardens, playgrounds, schools and buidlings in residential eras in Ukraine).

                                      + MH17

                                      How many "accidents" do we need to finally see that RuZZia has become a fascist terror state?
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                                      • Originally posted by Artoo View Post

                                        It sounds like an accident. Putin has no reason to be bombing Poland and I doubt he’ll do it again. He does not want war with NATO - he can’t even win a war in the Ukraine.

                                        The question is whether he’ll deny it or apologise for it, and we still cannot rule out a third party trying to start something bigger - those gas pipes did not blow themselves up and I’m not convinced it was Russia.
                                        I feel it was an accident, but who knows. Maybe Putin testes NATO's reaction or smth.
                                        I'd say that one of the shot down missiles hit Poland.
                                        Anyway, it's frightening...

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                                        • Originally posted by Mainshow View Post
                                          Firing 100+ rockets just like that "is no accident".
                                          No one said it was. We’re talking about one stray missile that ended up in Poland, probably due to a navigational fault.
                                          I have a bad feeling about this.

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                                          • Originally posted by Mainshow View Post
                                            Firing 100+ rockets just like that "is no accident".
                                            We already saw a rocket landing in Moldova (thankfully, no one did because of it) - now, RuZZia attacked Poland "by accident"?

                                            Who are they trying to fool around? - Either RuZZia is "trying to save civilizians" or they have no control about their rockets and just start firing them because they are not valueing human life at all.

                                            NATO needs to respond - Poland needs to respond.

                                            Thatīs already the "2nd accident" (+ countless bombings of kindergardens, playgrounds, schools and buidlings in residential eras in Ukraine).

                                            + MH17

                                            How many "accidents" do we need to finally see that RuZZia has become a fascist terror state?
                                            I agree with the sentiment, but what could Poland / Nato do that wouldn't totall bring on WW3?

                                            I kind of believe that Russia's military is completely incompetent at this point. I think they were firing these missiles without literally knowing where exactly they would hit...

                                            But there is one thing on which I 100% agree with you: Russia does not care one single bit about human life... (well Putin), he doesn't care about Ukrainian civilians as much as he doesn't care for his soldiers and his own population. He probably sees himself as this modern Roi de Soleil and this attitude will bring forward his downfall sooner than later.
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                                            • Originally posted by arab View Post

                                              I feel it was an accident, but who knows. Maybe Putin testes NATO's reaction or smth.
                                              I'd say that one of the shot down missiles hit Poland.
                                              Anyway, it's frightening...
                                              Yes, both entirely possible. I don’t think Putin would play a game of chicken though. I imagine the news has made him even more unpopular within the Kremlin though.

                                              The missiles were revenge for their own failings, so there has to be some in Russia wondering why he launched them in the first place - you can’t just go bombing civilians because your army is a load of rubbish.

                                              It’s going to be a tense 48 hours I think.
                                              I have a bad feeling about this.

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                                              • Originally posted by Artoo View Post

                                                No one said it was. We’re talking about one stray missile that ended up in Poland, probably due to a navigational fault.
                                                Itīs still an attack on Poland.

                                                RuZZia has been attacking Ukrainian cities arbitrarily for months now (hitting residential areas or committing acts of genocide by hitting dams and critical infrastracture).

                                                After a missile hitting Moldova, now itīs Poland (+ 2 citizens of a NATO member state got killed). Which country is next? Maybe a few civilians killed in Lithuania or Slovakia?

                                                NATO doesnīt have to attack RuZZia but they can clearly come up with a no-flight-zone over Ukraine, throw out RuZZian ambassadors who were glorifying act of genocide (the ambassadors in Vienna and Paris say "hello"), stop letting pass any trains from mainlaind RuZZia to Kaliningrad...

                                                That no-flight-zone is important to make sure that this wonīt be happening again. Itīs time....
                                                Last edited by Mainshow; Tue November 15, 2022, 21:56.
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                                                • Originally posted by stevyy View Post

                                                  I agree with the sentiment, but what could Poland / Nato do that wouldn't totall bring on WW3?
                                                  Station troops in every NATO country that borders the Ukraine and give them the weapons to defend against any further missiles. More sanctions and demands that Russia pay reparation for the loss of life and damage in Poland.
                                                  I have a bad feeling about this.

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                                                  • Originally posted by stevyy View Post

                                                    I agree with the sentiment, but what could Poland / Nato do that wouldn't totall bring on WW3?

                                                    I kind of believe that Russia's military is completely incompetent at this point. I think they were firing these missiles without literally knowing where exactly they would hit...

                                                    But there is one thing on which I 100% agree with you: Russia does not care one single bit about human life... (well Putin), he doesn't care about Ukrainian civilians as much as he doesn't care for his soldiers and his own population. He probably sees himself as this modern Roi de Soleil and this attitude will bring forward his downfall sooner than later.
                                                    We could stop pretending that apart from "ignoring and placing another sancation or two" everything els would bring us to the beginning of WWIII whilst RuZZia continues comitting acts of genocide and more.
                                                    Itīs time to respond in a harsher way (NATO shouldnīt attack RuZZia) but theyīve been crossing another line (a line which was a red flag for NATO members).

                                                    We shouldnīt be supporting the idea of "we have to be careful because otherwise, RuZZia will nuke us all away or WWIII will break out" because thatīs RuZZiaīs strategy.. To create fear so that they can get away with everything.

                                                    Also, itīs not "Putinīs war" but almost all of RuZZiaīs elite are involved - Kadyrov, Lavrov, Shoigu, Medvedev, Zakharova, Dugin - priests and muftis alike - tv hosts and even some celebrities (and former ESC participants) - they all support the war, they all came up with fascist comments - praising war crimes, genocide and more.
                                                    Last edited by Mainshow; Tue November 15, 2022, 21:56.
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