War in Ukraine: the UK becomes first country to give long-range missiles to Ukraine

[Artoo]

From my understand, Ukraine use different types of air defence systems/tanks etc. (like what they already had, got sent by NATO members, etc.)
Itīs clearly some additional piece of information but it doesnīt make other aspects/information "untrue" at this stage, imo - or am I failing to see the message of that post/article?

I noted that the US aren’t saying the same as NATO. They aren’t contradicting each other, but it’s not quite the same either, and it’s really odd to make the 100% claim.

[franklex]

I am very serious - ultimately diplomacy is the only way out of this. It also doesn’t matter if Putin believes the rubbish he says - it doesn’t make it true, and he knows this.

Diplomacy way was refused by Putin on Feb 24, 2022 when he said that there is no longer a way for diplomacy and Minsk agreements now are dead.

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg:

I think we have to remember what this is. This is a war of aggression, where Russia, President Putin has invaded other country and by doing that they have violated international law. And even though they have lost some territory over the last two weeks or months, they still control large parts of Ukraine. Ukraine has stated that they're ready to negotiate, but will also of course, know that the only way to achieve an acceptable outcome for them is that they have the strength on the battlefield. Most wars end at some stage around the negotiating table. But what happens around the table is fundamentally linked to the situation on the battlefield. So what we should do is to support Ukraine to strengthen their hand, so at some stage, there can be negotiations where Ukraine prevail as an independent sovereign nation in Europe. It's for Ukraine to decide. It’s them to pay –they are paying the highest price in terms of lost lives and damage to the country. So it's for Ukraine to decide what kind of terms that are acceptable for them, is for us to support them and maximize the likelihood for an acceptable outcome. And it is as Minister Ollongren, Kajsa said, that if President Zelenskyy and Ukrainians stop fighting, then Ukraine will cease to exist as an independent nation. If President Putin and Russia stops fighting, then we'll have peace, so Russia can end this war tomorrow. They started the war and they can end the war by stop invading a neighbour.

franklex why don’t you tell us exactly what The Ukraine wants and how it intends to achieve that? What do you classify as a victory, and how do you intend to endure Russia doesn’t repeat this entire exercise in five years?

This question was clear out by our diplomacy and the president.
We dont need russian lands and a war with russia. We want them to leave us and our lands.

so 1st is withdraw of all russian troops from Ukrainian therithory by their will or by our own forces. We do not ask NATO to send your soilders to fight for us. And this will be a victory for us - to throw russians out of our lands.

2nd peace talkings with garanties of the US/UK/Nato. Which (Except NATO) acording to Budapest Memorandum supported Ukrainian sovereignty as well as Russia instead of keeping Ukraine's nuclear status.

NATO membership will be impossible unless there is peace, so that’s not a viable solution: if NATO were happy to admit you and absorb the conflict, it would have already done so.

Don't you forget that Russia demanded Nato already in Dec of 2021 to pullback??? And wanted Poland and Baltic states were kicked out of NATO as well as Ukrain's Membership in Nato never be allowed???
So what will changes if NATO will absorb Ukraine? Demands of Russia will be technically the same. But:

As you said bfore, russia is not able to win war against Ukraine and totally against Nato and adding that Nato will involve and will destroy russian military forces within days if russia will use nukes in Ukraine, means that actually NATO can absorb the conflict if it will be needed and end it.

The point is that you (NATO) do not want to do it right now. So what do you say is being rejected by NATO itself. Nato does not want to fight insted of ukrainians protecting their lands. So if Ukraine will take its lands back, Ukraine will be able to protect it lands in that casee. And to prevent Russia from repeat this entire exercise in five years, Nato membrship is and can be a garantee. As you said that russia wont to attack a whole Nato because it is not strong enogh and neither Nato or Ukraine will try to invade Russia.

But if you would think that russia will demand somthing, that is not the case coz russia already did it. They wanted Poland and other countries of former Warshaw Pact's countries be out of Nato and demaand it in Dec of 2021. So Nato is a garantee for Ukraine as well as for Poland.

As far as I can see, the only guarantee you have is if you invade Russia and overthrow Putin. Failing that, it’s going to have to be a diplomatic solution.

Do you suggest for Ukraine to become an agressor and invade Russia and change thier power by force, really?? Becous they did it we may do the same? I do not even talk about the sizee and that our population wont agree on that. Thats the same as prupose to Poland in WW2 to invade Nazi Grmany and Soviet Union coz them both invaded Poland...

[franklex]

And now we’re going around in circles.



BBC

If I am correct Ukraine got 1x system of IRIS-T from Grmany and 4x NASAMS from Norway/US

But Ukraine is 1200km wide and operational radius of IRIS-T which is only 80km. So we have a mix of systems and just a few western for now. And as we know they are at the front line and I guess near by Nuclear PP infrastructure.

When we reading that US or Germany will bring air defencr systems to Ukraine it looks nice only in the headlines, in fact our apartments with residents being killed and those air defence sytems do not cover enogh area and will be delivere or prodused in 2023 or later...

[Artoo]

Do you suggest for Ukraine to become an agressor and invade Russia and change thier power by force, really?? Becous they did it we may do the same? I do not even talk about the sizee and that our population wont agree on that.

No I don’t suggest that at all.

You challenge every opinion and thought posted in this thread, but I don’t think you’ve posted an actual creditable roadmap out of the entire situation. If Russia is pushed out completely, that isn’t the end and the war is not won. There would be nothing stopping Russia from trying again, or simply using missiles instead of soldiers. So how do you believe your country can win and end the war without diplomacy?

Joining NATO is not a solution without peace being established first. Diplomacy is the only way to do that. Both sides will have to come to an agreement and you will have to trust each other to uphold it and abide by it. Otherwise the war continues, most probably with Russia bombing you every now and again, targeting your resources and infrastructure, with a view of destroying your political system and your economy.

[franklex]

So Sweden will snd air defence systems to Ukraine

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ce-2022-11-16/

And Spain adding two more to 4 previously sended.
https://www.thedefensepost.com/2022/...stems-ukraine/

[franklex]

There would be nothing stopping Russia from trying again, or simply using missiles instead of soldiers. So how do you believe your country can win and end the war without diplomacy?

So NATO is not stopping Russia am I undrstand you, correct?

Answer to your qustion is already given by more proper and accountable man then me:
NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg:
Most wars end at some stage around the negotiating table. But what happens around the table is fundamentally linked to the situation on the battlefield.

Joining NATO is not a solution without peace being established first.

Who has defined it??? Isn't nato a military organization which should protect it membrs???

Diplomacy is the only way to do that. Both sides will have to come to an agreement and you will have to trust each other to uphold it and abide by it.

I dont see that for now Russia want to end this war. They want to take a break not to end it. So there is no point to discuss anything about peace at this point no matter what Ukraine wants or not.

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg:
if President Zelenskyy and Ukrainians stop fighting, then Ukraine will cease to exist as an independent nation. If President Putin and Russia stops fighting, then we'll have peace

Otherwise the war continues, most probably with Russia bombing you every now and again, targeting your resources and infrastructure, with a view of destroying your political system and your economy.

Otherwise, entire population of Ukraine will leave Ukraine and Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania will bordering with Russia and Moldova will no longr exist too. And then you will have a neigbour that demanded Nato to pullback by excluding all those countries from Nato.

[Artoo]

am I undrstand you, correct?

No, but don’t worry, I’m done explaining it.

[franklex]

You challenge every opinion and thought posted in this thread, but I don’t think you’ve posted an actual creditable roadmap out of the entire situation.

We are at war we did not started, there is nothing actual creditable roadmap of the entire situation that anyone can give you. Your suggestion to talk is same non creditable roadmap as we had already all that talks since 2014. Have you missed them?

I do belive that with time Ukraine will be protected enogh with nato's air defence systems, with armed forces and supplied with NATO weapon systems so russia wont be able to make any damage anymore and it will take a time to accept for them this fact - they have lose this war. As we can see now Ukraine takes its lands back and from plans to take Kyiv in 3 days they care about how to protect Moscow.

[GreekGeek]

You can’t over react in war. We all grew up with the consequences of 9/11, and the various military operations that were based on bogus intelligence that was trusted, for the most part, because some people just wanted something to blow up. We have to be smarter, and those instantly calling for retaliation against Russia are showing their naïveté.

NATO have declared this an accident, which makes the most sense. Russia simply isn’t in a position to start another war - it cannot win the one it’s already in, never mind trying to fight a second one. I don’t personally believe there are any conspiracies at play, yet some people will not want to believe that for a variety of reasons (no matter what).

But the tragedy should act as additional motive for getting The Ukraine and Russia around a table and an agreement for a peace to be reached (or at least a cease fire).

This post might be the most logical one that i have read in this thread for quite some time. Hopefully the world leaders are working on something like this. Not a long ago i remember Macron saying that the solution will be found in diplomacy.

[franklex]

No, but don’t worry, I’m done explaining it.

I literally do not understand why any one should explain something to us when Russians has come to our homes to kill us or rule us.... what we should understand and talk about?

[franklex]

Artoo , behind all of that, I m really sorry for those who died by that accident. I lived in Poland for many years and I m very grateful for all that support your county and people are giving to us. And I m sure one day ukraine will be strong and pay you back with such support as we are getting from your country and other our friends.

[Artoo]

As I said I’m not explaining anymore. I suspect something is getting lost in translation, or there’s some belief that negotiating is a sign of weakness, which isn’t the case at all.

But mostly I’m just bored of being attacked every single time I (or someone else) posts an opinion, or dares to discuss ways in which to end this war.

[SholasBoy]

franklex I think you need to step away from this topic now because clearly you are very involved and this forum and it’s members are not really the place for you to vent your frustrations. I don’t think anyone in this topic is saying they have support for Putin or this war, but everytime anyone questions anything with a slight different opinion to yours (or even questions another thought process) you are straight on the attack, which I understand, because you are so heavily invested, but that’s really not what this forum is for.

[jordi_89]

I've seen some people saying that the media, NATO & politicians/entities were gonna stop talking about the missile if it turned out it wasn't from Russia. Well, it was a missile from the Ukrainian defense system and it's been all over the news and even NATO have said it comes from Ukraine and that Russia had nothing to do with it*. So, what if we all calm down a bit (that includes me as well). Sometimes things are clear and don't need to have a conspiracy behind it.



*well, those defense missiles weren't launched because Ukraine was bored, but you get what I mean

[jordi_89]

So Sweden will snd air defence systems to Ukraine

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ce-2022-11-16/

And Spain adding two more to 4 previously sended.
https://www.thedefensepost.com/2022/...stems-ukraine/

Air defence systems are the best thing they can get right now tbh.

[jordi_89]

Thought: I'd say that people in all sides of this war, or all wars, are more stupid than they are evil, generally. Many times we see or read stuff that "one side has probably done (because they're bad)" and I'd say that some of those times it's just accidents and things they mess up while being at war.

Or maybe that's my naïve and optimistic side talking.

[franklex]

franklex I think you need to step away from this topic now because clearly you are very involved and this forum and it’s members are not really the place for you to vent your frustrations. I don’t think anyone in this topic is saying they have support for Putin or this war, but everytime anyone questions anything with a slight different opinion to yours (or even questions another thought process) you are straight on the attack, which I understand, because you are so heavily invested, but that’s really not what this forum is for.

Thank you for understanding, I really do. And yes, I am very involved. Maybe if some opinions would be at least careful, I would not reacting so much. Because in some of them you are talking about my OWN life.

You could just understand when anyone saying that Ukraine should not be a part of NATO or Ukraine will loose lands and should accept it, in this case you are talking about my personal house, family, friends and whole my life. How I supposed to feel about it? Is this a suggestion to loose all what I have? Some people saying they are want to discuss how to end this war but what they are talking about is my whole life. And those opinions do not left nothing from my life.
Or when I was living in Poland, in EU, I was paying taxes and spent my moneys there and I am very glad to read that Ukraine do not deserve protection or help becouse it is poor.

So maybe if someone before pointing something out would really think what they suggest to a reeal pople that have their houses and lives here, maybe we would not reacting as such as I do.

[Mainshow]

The issue is that one canīt negotiate with someone who doesnīt want to negotiate.

A few countries have already declared Russia to be a "terror state" (Czech Republic did so on the last weekend) and Putin as well as other Russian eliteīs comments clearly show incidents of "genocide" or at least, "genocidal intentions" - which is reflected by mass murders, torture chambers and delibaretly attacks on residential areas or hospitals across Ukraine. Negotiation and diplomacy might be useful if both parties remain civil and are genuinely seeking peace but thatīs not the case at the moment - and it hasnīt been the case earlier. Russia kept on attacking Ukraine despite holding negotiations before.

Of course, you can keep on repeating that "one has to talk", "one has to find another way via diplomacy" and "negotations are the key" but franklex and other members have pointed out that this is not possible as long as Russia thinks itīs going to win this imperial war and thus, it is important for Ukraine to keep on winning on the battlefield before we can start thinking of negotiations. If you treat this as a "normal war", you are mistaken. Itīs an imperial one carried out by a fascist regime. Also, Russia keeps on breaking one of the most important treaties (securing, protecting and accepting the independence and sovereignity of Ukraine) and they keep on colonising territories in Europe and Asia alike.

Comments such as Ukraine is just a poor country whose population is going to "flood" Europe and that they canīt offer anything to anyone apart from "soldiers" do not help, either.

Itīs easy for Western Europeans to say that "one has to negotiate and seek peace and one has to trust the other side" - and honestly, even I refrained from posting in this thread for a while because itīs somehow naive and pretentious to makes such comments somehow targeting at people from Eastern Europe since our struggle in terms of independence is a completely different one (especially in recent history) and Eastern European countries (Georgia, Moldova, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Czech Republic, Poland, Ukraine) contiued warning about Russiaīs intentions over the years (especially after the annexation of Crimea, the installment of nuclear weapons close to Poland and Lithuania) ... the decision coming from the Western countries was "to negotiate", a few sanctions countries didnīt follow.. and here we are... in the same situation again (but just with incidents of genocidal acts) and it amazes me how people still keep on telling Ukrainians that "one has to negotiate". This is not going to work.

You might say it with good intentions (I mean, I agree with you... negotations and diplomacy are always better than war.. ) but itīs easy to say this without taking into account whatīs been going on (imperial war, genocide on Ukrainian people, Russia becoming as fascist as the Third Reich, keep on coloniasing territories and states such as Mari El, Tatarstan, Komi, Dagestan, Buryatia and so on, ethnic cleansing (forcing members of different ethnicities to fight in Ukraine instead of mobilising people from Moscow and St. Petersburg) + Russia keep on firing missiles and committing war crimes... just today, Odesa got attacked again.

People saying that itīs not right to talk about negotiations yet are not "too invested" or "naive" or "not getting everything" - they just recognise Russia as a terror state and an imperial power who commits genocidal acts....and therefore, how would you negotiate with someone who doesnīt value human life and the most basic principles of diplomacy? (Russian ambassadors openly and officially stated that they wish to destroy/murder Ukrainians). Russia even stated that Ukraine is not a real country and their intention is to "undo the historical mistake of creating a country as Ukraine".
An imperial power run by a fascist regime will not negotiate with a "fake country which shouldnīt exist in the first place run by drug dealers backed up by satanists from the US and EU).

Maybe Iīm reading too much into this and if thatīs the case, Iīm really sorry about it and I apologise in advance but itīs not (only) franklexīs fault that some parts of this thread gets a bit messy or "heated" - other members keep on talking about negotations whilst neglecting crucial facts as well and if you keep bringing this up whilst Ukraine keeps on getting attacked (accompanied by heinous crimes and genocidal acts/intentions coming from Russia)... itīs just not "helpful" and a terrible timing.

[theMathematician]

I'm also team negotiation because I don't believe that either Russia or Ukraine will win this war. The longer the war, the more destruction. What Putin is doing is wrong, no doubt, but I've completely changed my mind on Selenskiy. I used to be a big fan in the beginning of the war, but now he's turning war-hungry, and that leads to no solution but only extends the war. At the moment, he's not fighting for the people but to stroke his ego, and that's not very presidential. The Ukraine has lost many of its citizens over the course of months, and the longer the war goes on, the less likely they are to return because they've built up a life somewhere else. What's the point of defending a country where no one wants to live in the end?

[Mainshow]

I'm also team negotiation because I don't believe that either Russia or Ukraine will win this war. The longer the war, the more destruction. What Putin is doing is wrong, no doubt, but I've completely changed my mind on Selenskiy. I used to be a big fan in the beginning of the war, but now he's turning war-hungry, and that leads to no solution but only extends the war. At the moment, he's not fighting for the people but to stroke his ego, and that's not very presidential. The Ukraine has lost many of its citizens over the course of months, and the longer the war goes on, the less likely they are to return because they've built up a life somewhere else. What's the point of defending a country where no one wants to live in the end?

Ukraine is fighting for independence, sovereignity and freedom.
Selenskyj is not war-hungry but the Ukrainian forces are defending their home country. They are fighting for their people - because the alternative would be living under oppression of a fascist regime, losing a huge parts of the territories, regression in terms of democracy and human rights.
Selenskyj - even whilst being a war-torn country - pushes forward the rights of the LGTBQ+ community whilst gay people have been persecuted and oppressed in the Donbass region - deputy ministers of Donezk even openly stated that "one has to kill anyone who is gay and spreading their agenda".

Under the Russian occuption, Crimean Tatars had to relinquish and give up lands to the invaders - some Crimean Tatars fled to Ukraine. Russian authorities have persecuted, tortured Crimean Tatars.

Selenskyj is just doing what his people, the citizens of Ukraine want from him: Defending the homeland, not giving in - Several pools agree with it.
You are clearly mistaken if you think that Ukrainians do not support him - he is not fighting for his ego.
If Selenskyj starts negotiating with Russia right now and giving up several parts of the country for some sort of "peace" (which will not be happening).. he will be treated as a traitor - What you guys do seem to forget is that in mainland Ukraine - all provinces share a majority of Ukrainians - Itīs a myth that the Eastern regions are "populated by Russians" - and even the people living in Crimea supported the independence from Russia/the Soviet Union.
Thus, I highly disagree with you - The president is fighting for his people. What you just described is not how Ukrainians feel, think or what they need or want.
Such sentiment is simply a easy and very much misleading way to find an "easy" scapegoat for a very complex situation - especially since one aspect of the war (Ukrainians wanting to fight for their freedom, not wanting to live under Russian rule, not wanting to give up any territories) is utterly clear. Please donīt follow that route.

If you are looking for a "war-hungry" person, you should look at the Kremlin - Itīs not Ukraine who is bombing other countryīs cities. Itīs not Ukraine who is working with Iran. Itīs not Ukraine who is threatening whole Europe by nuking their citizens away. Itīs not Ukraine who is installing torture chambers.

One third of Polish people do not live in Poland, btw - you could also argue that Poland - the fastest-growing economies in Europe - is in trouble because such a huge part of their people donīt want to come back...
Ukraine is not even close.... itīs just a very strange conclusion to assume that Ukraine will be left without people (and Europe will be flooded by them - as stated and mentioned by another members on this forum).

I also highly recommend you to stop using "the" in front of the word "Ukraine" - Itīs a term referring back to colonialism. By using this, you implictly do not fully recognise the sovereignity and independence of Ukraine - This may not be your opinion but itīs quite hurtful to keep on reading "the Ukraine" in this thread. If you want to read more about this (I posted two articles on the previous page). Thank you in advance ;)

[Mainshow]

Ukraine war: Bodies found amid reports of Russian atrocities in Kherson

Ukraine says it has found the bodies of 63 civilians bearing signs of torture near the recently liberated city of Kherson. Russia has repeatedly denied committing atrocities in its invasion. But in Kherson, the BBC spoke to two people who said they were held for more than a month in what are being described as "torture chambers".

At one police station in recently liberated Kherson, each cell tells its own story.

Some have clothes strewn everywhere, one has a burnt-out bed, another has dog bowls and rubbish strewn everywhere. In one, a Russian flag lies in the centre of the floor.

In cell number six is Anzhela's story.

It was here she spent 31 days with four other women after being captured by Russian soldiers in June.

Before the invasion of Ukraine in February, Anzhela, 49, was a TV presenter on a Telethon channel. By early March, armoured Russian convoys were entering her home city of Kherson.

As Russia's grip tightened around the regional capital, demonstrations were gradually crushed, and freedoms were eroded. In June, armed men entered Anzhela's home, separated her from her boyfriend, put a bag over her head and loaded her on to a bus.

It was from there Anzhela was taken to cell number six.




"On the third floor, men were beaten," she recalls. "When the person is being tortured with electricity, you hear it. It is a peculiar sound.

"Men were screaming in pain."

After the Russians took Kherson, investigators say they rounded up people with connections to the Ukrainian military or partisans who'd protested against their occupation.

They claim to have found 11 illegal prisons and four torture chambers in Kherson after it was liberated. More than 700 people have been reported as missing.

It's feared they are either dead or have been illegally taken to Russian-occupied territories, or Russia itself.

And now Ukraine has announced the discovery of dozens of bodies with signs of torture near the city. Interior minister Denys Monastyrsky said the investigation into crimes there had only just begun, "so many more dungeons and burial places will be uncovered".


Anzhela calmly describes being psychologically tortured for more than a month. She often saw bodies wrapped in plastic taken out after "interrogations went too far".

Then she draws breath and describes the scars she still bears.

"There are some triggers," she says. "When they opened the gates, they made a specific sound. It meant more people were arriving to be interrogated."

The journalist says she couldn't fall asleep because the lights were always on. Once released, she found she couldn't go to bed in the dark.

What Anzhela didn't know was that her boyfriend was being held at the police station too.


Oleksandr Maksimenko, 69, shared a room with 15 other men, who he claims were relentlessly beaten and tortured. Some were electrocuted.

"It's horrible," he remembers. "One guy who was brought to the cell after his interrogation came back with a black tongue. It was so swollen it couldn't go back in his mouth."

Oleksandr says he shared painkillers with his cell mates. Temperatures often reached 40C and they were made to learn the Russian national anthem.

"One man was so bruised, he was almost fully blue from his head to his legs. It took him eight days to be able to stand up," he says.

Investigators say prisoners were often forced to confess to being a Ukrainian collaborator to be freed.

In Oleksandr's case, he had to appear on Russian state TV.

As the tide of Russian occupation once again recedes in Ukraine, Moscow is again accused of committing war crimes.

Russia continues to deny deliberately targeting civilians, despite overwhelming evidence.

In liberated Kherson, the damage isn't so much structural, instead a place where everyone has a tale of vivid struggle.

It seems like a city the Russians especially wanted to portray as their own.

They hoped targeting people like Oleskandr and Anzhela would help them in that goal.

Ukraine war: Bodies found amid reports of Russian atrocities in Kherson - BBC News

I will refrain from posting any pics of torture chambers - they can be easily found online (some even on web pages like BBC, CNN or theGuardian).

[theMathematician]

I also highly recommend you to stop using "the" in front of the word "Ukraine" - Itīs a term referring back to colonialism. By using this, you implictly do not fully recognise the sovereignity and independence of Ukraine - This may not be your opinion but itīs quite hurtful to keep on reading "the Ukraine" in this thread. If you want to read more about this (I posted two articles on the previous page). Thank you in advance ;)

I didn't know about this and highly doubt anyone apart from people working in the field of East European sciences are aware of this in my country. In my (our?) mother tongue, there are a few countries where you add 'the' ahead of the country's name, e.g. Turkey, Switzerland or Ivory Coast, so at least in this specific context, there's no hidden political message, it's just linguistics.

[Mainshow]

I didn't know about this and highly doubt anyone apart from people working in the field of East European sciences are aware of this in my country. In my (our?) mother tongue, there are a few countries where you add 'the' ahead of the country's name, e.g. Turkey, Switzerland or Ivory Coast, so at least in this specific context, there's no hidden political message, it's just linguistics.

It is indeed "just linguistics" - "The Ukraine" is wrong (especially in Russian and English). It is used (also by the Kremlin) to highlight the fact that itīs just a "region" in another countrry.. .like "Die Pfalz", "Die sächsische Schweiz" oder "Die Walachei" - in English, "Ukraine" should be used and thatīs the official and grammatically correct term since the 1990īs.
In German, as youīve correctly pointed out, itīs a different case since the definite article still applies to some countries (der Iran, die Schweiz, die Türkei and so on).
However, itīs a different story in English and "ordinary people" speaking English are also (somehow) aware of it, e.g. itīs also just "Ukraine" in sports, the Eurovision Song Contest or politics (also newspaper articles).

Thanks for noticing and I donīt mean it in a bad way - I just think itīs a very important information to know (especially whilst talking about the war and Ukraine as a sovereign country) but "the Ukraine" - even said with good intentions or without knowing the context - is hurtful/grammatically incorrect and implicitly shares the thought of Ukraine not being a real country.

[theMathematician]

OK, thanks for providing the background information, I'll keep it in mind for the future. For now, leaving the 'the' off sounds a bit weird as I'm so used to it, but maybe it's just a matter of convention.

[Mainshow]

OK, thanks for providing the background information, I'll keep it in mind for the future. For now, leaving the 'the' off sounds a bit weird as I'm so used to it, but maybe it's just a matter of convention.

I think it can be learnt quite easily in English if you think of another example - you donīt say "the Switzerland" or "the Turkey" in English, either (even though itīs "die Schweiz" in German). Maybe that connection may help. Thank you for understanding!