War in Ukraine: the UK becomes first country to give long-range missiles to Ukraine

[Mainshow]

So, now that both sides called each other's views 'naive', how do we go on from there?

Maybe go back to discuss facts/information?

Personally, I think itīs quite offensive (especially to Ukrainians and people from Eastern Europe) to continue proclaiming and suggesting that negotiations and "giving up territories" is the only option to "end this" - especially since - as pointed out several times - such method is not going to happen anytime soon - Ukraine knows it - Russia knows it - Putin himself made it impossible by "annexing" four regions of Ukraine (without Russian soldiers actually controlling these regions).. Ukraine had said it multiple times that all negotiations will come to an end if Russia continues running these sham referendums.
Also, there is a genocide happening on Ukrainian people - or at least, many war crimes of genocidal intent (Putin and his elite have made such statements several times).
Negotiations with such people wonīt work and wonīt be bringing peace - thatīs what we (hopefully) have learnt from history and thatīs also what Macron implicitly said.
Itīs tiring to come into this thread to see that "negotiations are the key" "backed up" by a statement of Macron which hasnīt been fully understood...
Macron himself said that itīs only possible IF PUTIN WERE RATIONAL... and that fascist mass murderer clearly is not rational at this point.

Theoretically, I agree with all of you (honestly) - negotations are important and should end wars - but this is a different case here - we donīt see countries fighting over disputed territories - itīs imperialism, colonialism, fascism and acts of genocide.

Imagine England invading Ireland, completely destroying one of the largest cities of the country, bombing residential areas, universities, hospitals, schools and playgrounds, attacking critical infrastructure, making more than 20% of the Irish population flee, firing 100 missiles per day (arbitarily), murderering Irish people for being "non-English", burning Irish books, the BBC broadcasting several speeches in which British politicians as well as the King and prime minister claiming that "Ireland was not a real country, that Irish Gaelic is a fake language and that one has to expunge the country from the map" whilst the UK threatens tons of several countries to "nuke them away" and killing Irish priests, teachers and kidnapping and deporting thousands of Irish children and raise them "as English".

Would you all go and whine about "WWIII" and ask Ireland (and tell this to Irish people) that they should give up to finally "end the war" by negotiating with mass murderers and fascists who are responsible for this... who continue saying that they will not stop the war anyway??
Especially after Ireland was able to gain some territories back - including a capital of a region?

If Ukraine gives Russia what it wants, Ukraine will not exist anymore and Russia will continue waging war (their goal is to reach Transnistria, at least.. maybe even more).

As long as "such negotations" donīt result into all invaders leaving Ukraine, Putin (and his elite) being charged for genocide and mass murders - this war wonīt stop (it will be prolonged and expand, for sure... if you ask me (and several people from Eastern Europe who have been warning about this situation for years)... this war is just the continuation of Russia invading Georgia 2008 and Russia invading Ukraine 2014... they were started to gain territories, to colonialise and to russify several ethnic minorities and different ethnicities...

Russia canīt be trusted - they are a colonial and imperial power and have stated their intentions several times.

As long as Russia doesnīt state they want to stop to colonialise foreign lands, negotiations will be in vain and are not an option for Ukraine.

Itīs tiring to bring this up several times at this stage and like I said, itīs quite offensive to people whose lands have been colonialised by Russians/Soviets before.

[theMathematician]

I get your point, but I also get the theory 'What if Russia was fully out of Ukraine, wouldn't they start at a later point again?'. After all, Russia has got massive ressources and they aren't facing notable consequences for what they are doing at the moment. So what will eventually stop Russia especially since 'they can't be trusted'?

[Artoo]

If you don’t cut off the head of the snake it will strike again, unless you give it a reason not to - and nobody is prepared to cut off the head.

That is what it comes down to. Russia does not care about the rules - it has set fire to them and thrown them out the window. What we consider to be fair and just is not what they consider to be fair and just, and no amount of complaining about Russia is going to change that fact. The rules do not apply because nobody is prepared to enforce them - and Russia is exploiting that.

Negotiations are the only way towards peace. That does not mean giving up Ukrainian land. Yet peace will only happen through compromise, one way or another. Neither side will get what they want, neither will be happy, but at a very minimum, military action can stop and no more lives lost.

[Mainshow]

I get your point, but I also get the theory 'What if Russia was fully out of Ukraine, wouldn't they start at a later point again?'. After all, Russia has got massive ressources and they aren't facing notable consequences for what they are doing at the moment. So what will eventually stop Russia especially since 'they can't be trusted'?

We have had negotiations and treaties before (also at a point when Russians were fully out of Ukraine and Georgia) and yet, 20% of Georgia is occupied by Russian invaders and we are facing a war in Ukraine.

The thing is that Russia has not "got massive ressources" - Russian soldiers donīt have enough waistcoats and they are struggling regarding weapons as well - they do have nuclear weapons and enough missiles, for sure.. and thatīs why it is so important to deliver more airdefense systems to Ukraine and to protect the sky.
Itīs possible to achieve this - even if youīre at war with your neighbours (or are enemies). Look at Israel, for example.

What can "we" do know? - Israel could provide necessary technology, Germany could send Patriot air defence systems (even Poland asks Germany to hand it over to Ukraine). I personally believe that protecting the sky over Ukraine wouldnīt be a WWIII scenario.

Like Iīve already mentioned it (last page?), the Russian elite is slowly but surely losing support in some ethnic minorities within the Russian Federation. Weīre not talking about a lot of riots (yet) but weīve seen several people in Dagestan fighting the police and saying that "this is not our war" and a few but very brave regional politicians have demanded Putin to resign (Mari El republic). An underground group in Tatarstan is pushing for independence.
Due to oppression and the authoritarian regime in Russia, such "unrest" wonīt result into independence efforts yet but slowly but surely, the Kremlin must feel that some of their people arenīt blindly following their rules.

Also, Russia continues losing support in former Ex-Soviet countires - currently, Russian soldiers are also deployed in Azerbaijan as "peacekeepers" but despite Putinīs wish, Azerbaijan didnīt extend their permit to continue operating on Azerbaijani lands until 2024 (if Iīm not mistaken).
Quite surprisingly, one of Russiaīs biggest ally, Armenia, also heavily levelled criticism at Russia how they dealt with the Karabakh war.

Even Kazakhstan whose president Tokayev had asked for Russiaīs help to deal with the unrest in January (Russian soldiers shot down and killed protestors in Kazakhstan), levels criticism at Russiaīs war.

Rachmon, the president of Tajikistan even said it straight into Putinīs face (whilst other presidents were present) that Russia needs to stop treating former Ex-Soviet countries and countres in Central Asia as "ethnic minorites during Soviet times". Heīs has implicitly levelled criticism at Russiaīs imperialism and colonialism, openly.

People from the West usually overestimate Russiaīs influence on these countries - they are clearly distancing themselves from their former colonial rulers.

Thus, I believe that Russia continues isolating itself from the international community. Thereīs a reason why started to work with Iran and the Taliban in Afghanistan.
The question is... do Russian people really want to live that way? In the long run, I just hope that Russia - as it exists todway (as a colonial power run by a fascist regime) by be eaten up by its own people(s) [ethnic minorities].

Itīs not unlikely to see Russia losing this war by increasing the pressure (more sanctions, not allowing trains to commute from mainland Russia to Kaliningrad by crossing Lithunian grounds) and tightening ties with former Ex-Soviet countries... the West should have been more interested in finding solutions and agreements to the war in Karabakh (to further alienate Azerbaijan and Armenia from Russia [and being dependent on them]).

For sure, itīs a complex political issue and several countries need to carefully be operating on several different subjects of heated debate and agreements and treaties.. but itīs not "impossible".

[Rihab]

Negotiations are the only way towards peace. That does not mean giving up Ukrainian land. Yet peace will only happen through compromise, one way or another. Neither side will get what they want, neither will be happy, but at a very minimum, military action can stop and no more lives lost.

Yeah good luck with that. Why would Putin agree to give up land and withdraw his troops all of sudden? Because Biden finally said ''k fine let's talk''? The old man is not that important lol.

As long as Ukraine's territorial integrity is guaranteed, I'm also not against negotiations, but we need to be realistic here.

[Mainshow]

Negotiations are the only way towards peace. That does not mean giving up Ukrainian land. Yet peace will only happen through compromise, one way or another. Neither side will get what they want, neither will be happy, but at a very minimum, military action can stop and no more lives lost.

Itīs utopian, unrealistic, naive and totally idealistic.

Weīre running in circles.

Negotiating with Hitler 2.0 will maybe "stop military action" for a few months/years but many more lives with be lost (ethnic cleansing, deporatation, oppression will still be taking place) - thatīs not a "compromise" Europe should make in a post-WWII-world.


Russia is NOT WILLING to make any compromises
(Ukraine was up for negotiations before and they gave up on a potential NATO membership and they said that these 4 sham referendums have crossed the red line)

Ukraine needs to win back the vast majority of its territory back - before anyone can even make Russia think of "making a compromise" at this stage.

[Artoo]

I just love how people read my comments and then reply to them arguing against things I never said

[GreekGeek]

Ok, seriously, when you give your opinion you literally suggesting a suicide or genocide. This position, like lets be out of this war, or do not help Ukraine or peace by any price this is dangrouse it's Chamberlain's position for the West. And for Ukraine it is and end. For me and milions of ukrainians it is genocide.

I am sorry but this position we should talk or... or what??? We wont have a electricity or water or heating in our homes??? Look at Mariupol, Kherson etc... There is NO water and electricity as well as no people (tortures and killings), no laws (like in Russia) and no freedom at all.

Shortly this is what you suggest:
Food as a weapon. What you should know about Holodomor, the artificial famine that killed millions of Ukrainians

https://war.ukraine.ua/articles/holo...of-ukrainians/

I dont understand why Stoltenberg, Scholz and Stanmeier, Macron and even Orban seems like start to understand..

ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND?!
Where on earth did i suggest something like this?!
I'M AGAINST ANY ACT OF VIOLENCE.

You have insulted me several times. Enough is enough. I'm asking you this politely: stop offending me. OK?

[Mainshow]

I just love how people read my comments and then reply to them arguing against things I never said

You keep on telling us that "negotiations" need to end this so that lives could be saved immediately and that both parties have to make compromises - so far so good - thatīs logical and it would totally makes sense in "ordinary wars over disputed areas" but this is not the case here.

What you donīt seem to understand (or do not really read in other peopleīs post) is that Russia is not willing to make any compromises.
The compromise would be "stop killing civilians" and getting 4 regions of Ukraine, Crimea and a puppet regime ruling Ukraine like the dictator in Belarus?

You cited Macron to stress your point but thatīs in vain because Macron also said that negotiations canīt take place now at all because Putin is not "rational".

But if you (members in this thread) want to continue fooling yourselves... go on and tell people who get invaded and colonialised to "make compromises" and even calling them out for being offended by such statements afterwards.

I will not continue commenting on this matter until negotations will be really taking place (which I honestly canīt see happening at this point and anyone who is truly against fascism, colonialism and imperialism shouldnīt be advocating it at this point).

[Mainshow]

Speaking of colonialism,

Russia's Justice Ministry has added the banned All-Tatar Public Center (TIU) to its list of extremist organizations, the Federal Security Service said on November 18. In June, the Supreme Court of the Republic of Tatarstan labeled the leading NGO, which is involved in promoting and protecting Tatar history, culture, and language, as an extremist group. The TIU started its activities in 1989. In recent years, the organization has been under pressure from authorities in the wake of an ongoing crackdown on NGOs, independent media, and democratic institutions across Russia.

Russian Justice Ministry Adds Banned Tatar Group To Its Extremist List (rferl.org)

ATPC organised protests in the 80īs 90īs and demanded independence from Russia/the Soviet Union - they have been advocating in favor of Tatar language and culture ever since.

Speaking of oppression,

Pretrial Detention Extended For Anti-War Activist In Russia's Tatarstan (rferl.org)

And thatīs just the news coming in from Tatarstan - Ukraine simple doesnīt want to end this way and thereīs no point of making comprises when the majority of people living in these regions are ethnic Ukrainians and voted in favor of Ukraine in the independence referendum (not talking about the sham referendums).

[Artoo]

As I said, I love that people quote me and argue against things not in my post. I certainly love it when people think I don’t read articles I post

My position has been the same since day one, and that is that Ukraine has a sovereign right to exist fully and intact, completely unmolested. Yet nobody has a roadmap out of this mess, and they just keeps shooting down the idea that negotiations won’t end this war.

Despite repeatedly stating that they don’t mean Ukraine has to give up land, I’ve been repeatedly told I’m wrong. Ultimately though, negotiations will end this because it’s the only thing that will. If they fail the war continues - it’s as simple as that, and we’ve seen it time and time again.

Another question I’ve raised is how we expect the world to penalise Russia if it does not abide by international law? It’s all very well saying Russia needs to pay retribution (and valid) and Putin needs to be tried as a war criminal, but in practise how can we make a superpower do anything it doesn’t want to do?

We also have to acknowledge that Russia is not the only superpower to illegally go to war with a sovereign nation. Circumstances may differ, but there’s some uncomfortable truths that need to be faced all the same.

It is all very well posting idealistic and well meaningful posts, but the reality is there’s a very good chance Ukraine will not get everything it wants no matter how much it demands it - but these things can only be hammered out during negotiations.

The only recourse available to the world is to keep sanctioning Russia and to continue isolating it. Aside from that or declaring war (which isn’t going to happen), there’s absolutely nothing we can do about Russia if it doesn’t agree to play by our rules.

[Mainshow]

Thank you for clarifying your posts.

This is very reasonable and honestly, I donīt think that we disagree that much.

I just think that itīs tiring to continue claiming that negotiations will end this war because thatīs not whatīs going to happen (Putin just said that the world has to recognise the four annexed territories as Russian territory and Scholz, however, just had a phone call with Putin and said that all Russian soldiers need to leave Ukraine before negotiatons can take place) - We need to see Moscow (unlikey) or Kyiv (hopefully also unlikely) bombed until one side is eager to "really negotiate" right now.
You also keep on clinging to the narrative that "negotiations" will have to end this but none of you, guys, can give us any reason why and how negotiations can even take place right now - at what costs? - as Iīve already asked before... how can you make Putin to negotiate WITHOUT making Ukraine sacrifice too much territory and too many people?

I also strongly believe that some sort of peace (as a result of negotiations) will not stop this imperial war (as previously mentioned) - it might "stop immediate bombing" on Ukrainian territories which will be part of a post-negotiations Ukrainian state but it will bring a lot of deaths and pain in follow-up scenarios caused by such fragile "peace" (Russificiation, ethnic cleansing, Russia will have time to produce new weapons and make plans to invade Moldova and continues destabilising Ukraine, Georgia and other neighbours as well as keep on colonialising several republics in Russia and beyond).

Another scenario to end "this" is the deconstruction and decomposition of Russia (we already saw some glimpses recently)
This will take up years, for sure (and during that time, Ukraine needs to keep on being strong and be heavily supported by Europe and the West) but I think it was a very interesting piece to read.
This article also sums up some basic facts (history) and may be enlightening why negotiating and making (territorial) compromises is - as long as thereīs something worth fighting for - is no option for Ukraine.


The deconstruction of Russia and reconstruction of a “post-Russia space”: a risky but inevitable scenario - New Eastern Europe - A bimonthly news magazine dedicated to Central and Eastern European affairs

I can highly recommend this journal to everyone whoīs interested into the complex dynamics of Eastern Europe.

[Mainshow]

Transnistria will not resume supplying electricity back to Moldova (even though itīs Russiaīs fault that Moldova canīt receive enough electricity it needs).


https://apnews.com/article/russia-uk...5c4dfe4c4c25b8

[jordi_89]

Yeah good luck with that. Why would Putin agree to give up land and withdraw his troops all of sudden? Because Biden finally said ''k fine let's talk''? The old man is not that important lol.

As long as Ukraine's territorial integrity is guaranteed, I'm also not against negotiations, but we need to be realistic here.

The old man

I agree though

[jordi_89]

On a side note, the Ukrainian family we gave my grandma's house to has decided it's (currently) safe enough to move back to Odessa. They're leaving this weekend. God, hope they're right.

Odessa? Good lord. Hope nothing happens to them.

[jordi_89]

A letter bomb exploded in the Ukrainian embassy in Spain, injuring one employee.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63812148

They found half a dozen more letter bombs. Some aimed at politicians (including Spain's president) and one aimed at the factory that sent components for weapons to Ukraine. Wtf

[jordi_89]

If Biden, Macron or other politicians try to negotiate with Russia right now, it'll just show how weak they are as leaders. No way. I know we have to try everything to achieve peace. But no negotiation has to be possible until Russia at the very least retreats.

[Mainshow]

They found half a dozen more letter bombs. Some aimed at politicians (including Spain's president) and one aimed at the factory that sent components for weapons to Ukraine. Wtf

Scary and utterly outrageous - the one aimed at the Spanish president as well as the one which hurt a diplomat should be treated as a terror attack.

[Mainshow]

4 years ago, Turkmenistan, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Iran and Russia signed a "historical document" to use the Caspian Sea for "peaceful purposes" only.

Four years after Putin's words, Russia launched missiles into Ukraine and turned the Caspian Sea into part of the war zone

Russia Is Using The Caspian Sea To Launch Strikes Against Ukraine. So Why Are The Caspian Countries Silent? (rferl.org)

Russia canīt even follow their own treaties, signed with "friendly states". How long will it take to break treaties with "enemies"?

(Even though it seems that the treaty only implies that the Caspian Sea should be a peaceful sea for the neigbouring countries.. Apparently, each state is allowed to fire missiles from it to other countries. - Great deal!).

[jordi_89]

The Ukraine embassy in Madrid received a letter with blood so they had to get everybody out and lock it down. ._.

[franklex]

The Ukraine embassy in Madrid received a letter with blood so they had to get everybody out and lock it down. ._.

Foreign Ministry spokesman Oleh Nikolenko wrote on Facebook that the “bloody parcels” were received by the Ukrainian embassies in Hungary, the Netherlands, Poland, Croatia and Italy, as well as by consulates in Naples, Italy; Krakow, Poland and the Czech city of Brno. He said that “we are studying the meaning of this message.”

https://abcnews.go.com/International...ssies-94340166

Probably, that was not russians, because they just can do it. it is so not logical or even russians just have no reason to do so... It, probably, were americans or some aliens again. xD
Can not wait to see a new doze of comments about meaningful negotiations, what stupid said Macron or Scholz again.... instead of a discussion of tanks and firejets supply...

[jordi_89]

https://www.elnacional.cat/ca/intern...28653_102.html

British intelligence has revealed that a survey made (but not published) by the Kremlin shows that support for the war has dropped significantly. 25% of people are for the war compared to 80% just 9 months ago. And 57% want to negotiate peace. Younger people are the ones more in favour of peace, while people who are 55yo and older want to proceed with the war.

Take this with a pinch of salt.



Btw I know that news website is in Catalan but there's the option of translating the whole thing, at least if you're using Chrome.

[franklex]

Also wondering how any is talking about how bad is that russians are destroying Ukrainian infrastructure and how we should surrender just for a some another nosense peace agreement with such a SUPERPOWER, when breach of many cities warming infrastructure in superpower russia, from geysers from the streets up to poop rivers...

in Chita - poop lake, in Volgogad - poop river flood, in Kasnodar freezing, Yakutia water supply collapse when people mining ice from frozen rivers and so on...

Thatks to that superpower whole Donbas gets water for a few hrs per day, no houses warming and even no sevage sevice in Makiivka (Donetsk Region) people just trough their poop out of th windows now... And some people think that we should leave our people there like that...

In Kherson has restoreed around 70% of electricity delivery.

[theMathematician]

It got reported on German TV as well. I'm just not sure how reliable that survey is.

[franklex]

https://www.elnacional.cat/ca/intern...28653_102.html

British intelligence has revealed that a survey made (but not published) by the Kremlin shows that support for the war has dropped significantly. 25% of people are for the war compared to 80% just 9 months ago. And 57% want to negotiate peace. Younger people are the ones more in favour of peace, while people who are 55yo and older want to proceed with the war.

Take this with a pinch of salt.



Btw I know that news website is in Catalan but there's the option of translating the whole thing, at least if you're using Chrome.

They giving you not alll about that poll. Russians wants to peacee but without giving Ukraine its therithories back. They want Ukraine to stop it but not what you think, when reading that russians want to stop this war....