War in Ukraine: the UK becomes first country to give long-range missiles to Ukraine

[Rihab]

what's that got to do with mainshow?

nnnn

[Rihab]

also this

He just wants ukranian refugees to stop coming to Germany so he'll say whatever justifies that outcome.

Very transparent.

According to them, not wanting to live in a dictatorship = ''letting your ego get in the way''.

And soldiers dying while defending democracy = ''pointless''.

We been knew that democracy doesn't matter to them, but the fact that they don't even bother to hide it anymore..

[jordi_89]

If Ukraine falls, Moldova and Georgia are next. It's just that simple. So the rest of the European countries should stop playing around and truly support the Eastern Front in my opinion. Not necessarily with troops (because "that's not what the EU is about" ) but sending aid and weapons to Ukraine, and blocking every kind of deal with Russia.

[Wayne]

If Ukraine falls, Moldova and Georgia are next. It's just that simple. So the rest of the European countries should stop playing around and truly support the Eastern Front in my opinion. Not necessarily with troops (because "that's not what the EU is about" ) but sending aid and weapons to Ukraine, and blocking every kind of deal with Russia.

Aren't they already doing that? In direct aid, there's already €100bn committed or spent.

Total Aid

Following the EU's decision of large new financial aid, Europe has for the first time surpassed the US in the value of total committed aid to Ukraine. Germany has become the largest donor country in Europe. The EU has significantly expanded its support commitments. EU countries and institutions total nearly 52 billion euros in military, financial and humanitarian assistance until November 20. The commitments made by the U.S. add up to just under 48 billion euros. The main reason for the changes is an 18-billion-euro Macro-Financial Assistance (MFA) package agreed by the EU for 2023.

The total commitment by country:

1. USA - €47.819bn
2. UK - €7.082bn
3. Germany - €5.445bn
4. Canada - €3.784bn
5. Poland - €3.001bn
6. France - €1.414bn
7. Norway - €1.210bn

https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-a...pport-tracker/

But they could do more, more quickly - and we should be worried about how domestic politics affects these commitments, the longer the war goes on.

[aRat]

also this



According to them, not wanting to live in a dictatorship = ''letting your ego get in the way''.

And soldiers dying while defending democracy = ''pointless''.

We been knew that democracy doesn't matter to them, but the fact that they don't even bother to hide it anymore..

I guess if even one russian soldier gets into Germany we should immediately surrender since we can't let our ego get in the way and fighting would be pointless. Also we can't bother other countries with our refugees.

New DDR here we come.

[Mainshow]

Aren't they already doing that? In direct aid, there's already €100bn committed or spent.

Total Aid

Following the EU's decision of large new financial aid, Europe has for the first time surpassed the US in the value of total committed aid to Ukraine. Germany has become the largest donor country in Europe. The EU has significantly expanded its support commitments. EU countries and institutions total nearly 52 billion euros in military, financial and humanitarian assistance until November 20. The commitments made by the U.S. add up to just under 48 billion euros. The main reason for the changes is an 18-billion-euro Macro-Financial Assistance (MFA) package agreed by the EU for 2023.

The total commitment by country:

1. USA - €47.819bn
2. UK - €7.082bn
3. Germany - €5.445bn
4. Canada - €3.784bn
5. Poland - €3.001bn
6. France - €1.414bn
7. Norway - €1.210bn

https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-a...pport-tracker/

But they could do more, more quickly - and we should be worried about how domestic politics affects these commitments, the longer the war goes on.

Impressive numbers but it is not enough and not fast enough - Germany hasn´t sent any modern weapons/tanks like Marder or Leopard yet (something even German politicians complain about, e.g. Strack-Zimmermann - she´s even part of a ruling party (FDP) but our chancellor and his counsellors are still blocking it).

Jets and ships are important as well, especially since RuZZia has been firing missiles to Ukraine from the Black Sea as well as the Caspian Sea.

[theMathematician]

Strack-Zimmermann, in all fairness, is part of a pro-weapon lobby and while she is indeed part of the government, she is not really neutral when it comes to weapon usage for that very reason.

[Mainshow]

Strack-Zimmermann, in all fairness, is part of a pro-weapon lobby and while she is indeed part of the government, she is not really neutral when it comes to weapon usage for that very reason.

She has been vocal about not sending weapons to war-torn regions before - but she changed her opinion (like other politicians in different countries, btw) due to the imperial war going on in Ukraine + evidences of genocidal crimes carried out by Russian soldiers.

I prefer seeing politicians in positions who are aware of what´s been going on (also behind the scenes) instead of politicians holding an office without having enough pre-knowledge and therefore, having to rely on counsellors who cost millions of Euros on a yearly basis.

Btw, a person shouldn´t be neutral on this war, anyway.
Being neutral = supporting the aggressor

[theMathematician]

Btw, a person shouldn´t be neutral on this war, anyway.
Being neutral = supporting the aggressor

With 'neutral', I didn't mean not doing anything but rather having an unbiased view on the scenario. And Strack-Zimmermann, in this scenario, is biased due to her pro-weapon lobbyism.

[Mainshow]

With 'neutral', I didn't mean not doing anything but rather having an unbiased view on the scenario. And Strack-Zimmermann, in this scenario, is biased due to her pro-weapon lobbyism.

I still disagree with you since she´s responsible for a political sector she´s acquired profound knowledge of and she´s shown that her integrity is intact since she didn´t send weapons to war-torn countries (and even was highly against it).

She´s just adapting to the difficult situation right now. I can totally understand why having ties to some associations reagarind weapons can be tricky, though - but personally, I think that´s what Western countries can still do to support Ukraine and it´s also what Ukrainian politicians (e.g. Kuleba, Melnyk) have been asking for weeks. It´s not like she´s using her ties to blindly gain profit..

[Mainshow]

Croatia Denies Refusing Entry To Chechens Hoping To Apply For Asylum

The Croatian Interior Ministry has denied that Zagreb refused entry to a group of Chechens who were waiting at a border town in Bosnia-Herzegovina hoping to gain entry and request asylum in the European Union country.

The ministry said on December 27 that it has allowed a number of Chechens to enter Croatia but did not say how many. Some of the Chechens waiting at the border say they fled Russia to avoid being sent to fight in Ukraine.

The Chechens told RFE/RL on December 27 that they arrived in Bosnia by plane from Istanbul. Most of them are families with children.

A man who identified himself only as Ilyas told RFE/RL that he had “received an invitation to the war in Ukraine” and left to avoid being sent to fight. He said he fled with his family and that the goal is to enter Croatia.

There are 100 Chechens in total in Velika Kladusa, a city in Bosnia, and they are being housed in a hotel, but only about 30 of them were waiting to enter Croatia on December 27. Some of them previously entered Croatia, but it was unclear how many.

Bosnia's Minister of Security Selmo Cikotic told RFE/RL that they want political asylum in Croatia but that Croatia does not currently accept that.

“There are some 'disagreements' between our border police and the Croatian border police," Cikotic told RFE/RL.

The Croatian Interior Ministry said that throughout 2022 it has recorded an increased number of Russian citizens who have submitted requests for international protection.

The ministry said it has not denied entry to anyone who has requested international protection and rejected insinuations that access to its asylum system is only possible for a certain category of Russian citizens and people who belong to certain religions.

The ministry said the country’s asylum system “is under the exclusive national jurisdiction of the Croatian police and the Ministry of the Interior," and that, therefore, it cannot be the subject of cooperation or "disagreements" between the Croatian and Bosnia-Herzegovina police.

In a written response to RFE/RL, the ministry pointed to the arrival of the Russian citizens legally through airports in Sarajevo and Tuzla.

“Therefore, we note that all third countries that have candidate status for the EU...have the obligation to harmonize their visa regime with the EU visa regime,” the ministry said.

Bosnia became an EU candidate country on December 15.

The statement also noted that Croatia does not accept people with travel documents issued by Russia, Ukraine, or Georgia under a decision of the European Parliament and European Council issued on December 14.

Cikotic said there is always a possibility that the visa-free travel regime between Bosnia and Russia could be canceled if it is determined that there has been a violation of the agreement.

"For now, it is a controlled number, and we do not have an estimate that it could go in that direction," Cikotic told RFE/RL, referring to the possibility that it could be canceled.

Ukrainian City Of Odesa Dismantling Monument Of Russian Empress Catherine The Great (rferl.org)

[Wayne]

Impressive numbers but it is not enough and not fast enough.

I agree on both counts. However, most of these countries unfortunately have statutory processes to follow before they can release such significant sums of money, so I can at least understand the timing issue. However, the ambition isn't bold enough, you're totally right - take the US (it's contributed just 0.23% of its GDP) and the UK as the single biggest contributing country outside of the US (has contributed just 0.26% of its GDP). There's so many macro factors at play here, affecting domestic economies, that the longer this goes on, the less likely countries are to be even as generous as they are currently.

[Wayne]

Former British Prime Minister Gordon Brown essentially setting out the steps required to instigate an international tribunal to review Putin's actions. The first step in holding him to account, and something President Zelensky has been calling for for months.

Gordon sets out that the UK and the US should take the lead on this:

Britain and the United States should now take the lead in not only supporting Ukraine but protecting the legacy of 1945: the Nuremberg moment that gave us the the idea of accountability for international crimes.

[GreekGeek]

Former British Prime Minister Gordon Brown essentially setting out the steps required to instigate an international tribunal to review Putin's actions. The first step in holding him to account, and something President Zelensky has been calling for for months.

Gordon sets out that the UK and the US should take the lead on this:

Britain and the United States should now take the lead in not only supporting Ukraine but protecting the legacy of 1945: the Nuremberg moment that gave us the the idea of accountability for international crimes.

And as a good-will gesture, those two countries will send on a trial before anyone else Bill Clinton, George Bush and Tony Blair. Then, France should join by sending Nicola Sarkozy. No?

Of course Putin is accountable for this war but i don't see him going to prison. He can just live somewhere in Russia until his death...

[jordi_89]

Yeah I also doubt he'll go to prison or face any real consequences for his actions.

[franklex]

I agree on both counts. However, most of these countries unfortunately have statutory processes to follow before they can release such significant sums of money, so I can at least understand the timing issue. However, the ambition isn't bold enough, you're totally right - take the US (it's contributed just 0.23% of its GDP) and the UK as the single biggest contributing country outside of the US (has contributed just 0.26% of its GDP). There's so many macro factors at play here, affecting domestic economies, that the longer this goes on, the less likely countries are to be even as generous as they are currently.

Never ever will belive it has anything to the economy. Covid year showed they dont give a fck about economy, central banks all across the globe printed so much moneys that skyrocketed inflation nowdays as they never printed so much before.
On the other hand as the West were declaring care about helth and paid for it with its economy, then in this case it is not just health it is life of itself. So they couid pay better. Of course for Ukaine those number are huge, but I will remind that HOW MANY trillions $ and Euros those countries paid to Russia evn after 2014. They give trillions into Putins hands which put all that income into a war efforts...
And in Ukaine we do not mind about those numbers and amounts, they are pointless.

This was pointed out by gen. Zaluzhy to the Economist:- https://www.economist.com/zaluzhny-transcript

"I know that I can beat this enemy. But I need resources. I need 300 tanks, 600-700 ifvs, 500 Howitzers. Then, I think it is completely realistic to get to the lines of February 23^rd. But I can’t do it with two brigades. I get what I get, but it is less than what I need. It is not yet time to appeal to Ukrainian soldiers in the way that Mannerheim appealed to Finnish soldiers. We can and should take a lot more territory."

TE: Are your allies holding you back in any way from advancing on Crimea?

VZaluzhny: I can’t answer the question of whether they are holding back or not. I will simply state the facts. In order to reach the borders of Crimea, as of today we need to cover a distance of 84km to Melitopol. By the way, this is enough for us, because Melitopol would give us a full fire control of the land corridor, because from Melitopol we can already fire at the Crimean Isthmus, with the very same himars and so on. Why am I saying this to you? Because it goes back to my earlier point about resources. I can calculate, based on the task at hand, what kind of resource is needed to build combat capability.

I dont think 300 tanks and 600fivs and 500 Howitzes costs like 1..2% of GDP of US or UK or Germany. They can give it if they want to win. But thanks to the stupid idiots on th West which are scared of "uncontrolled" consiquences on the land with 11 time zones if Ukraine will win quick.

Russia stated printing moneys and it will provoke inflation, they already taking moneys from funds they never used before till this moment and in russia, many players become creating a "personal" armies which, I am sure, are creating not for war with Ukaine but for resources and ownership war that will starts in Russia, right after Ukraine will riches its lands back. And very likely Russia will collapse not due to its national borders but due to those clones that will grab some resurces or areas duing this "Resurces and ownership" wars. If I am right in Russia is already 5 diffrent armies that belong to some person but not a country. And the West wants to take this undercontrol, i think this is taking place now, not economy or human/european values etc..

[franklex]

How much I want to see Macron saying about gaantiees for Russia and all that pro russian shit right on thr place of that jounalist in Kramatorsk:

[franklex]

Yeah pointless soilder of Ukraine do not know why they are killing russians but they are so much into it. Even make it more holiday-ish for those who has come to our land to take it from us:



And the report:



Our soilder made a good point to russians that will come to our land and not Bloody Mary will visit them on NYE but a true Bloody Santa will bring to their families packeges of black packages and presents if thy will not good this year and coss the border...

[franklex]

And another Ukrainian Santa checked his "Naughty List" :



Meanwhile Macron become first who has red "whishlist" of Zaluzny... First light tanks going to Ukaine, finally... No usless talk but actions, in the end... I hop Britain will give rockets that the US scary to give and Germany will also join seriouse help and will payback to the US after PATRIOT fail, when Poland suggested and Gemany said thy cant but US give it in a few weeks after. I hope now is a tun for Germany to give tanks, which will now "not giving them first" but after France...


https://www.france24.com/en/live-new...ks-for-ukraine

Macron promises 'first Western tanks' for Ukraine

tho, kind of expecting "promise" is not the same as Scholtz's one...

[Wayne]

UK and Poland confirm plans to send modern heavy tanks to Ukraine

Decisions put pressure on Germany and other western nations to follow suit

https://www.ft.com/content/092b8894-...4-5b21a0c68709

Come on Germany! The U.K. is sending its Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine which are state of the art and hugely capable but apparently the conditions in Ukraine would be better suited by the German made Leopard 2 tank.

Either way, this gives Ukraine exactly what it requires and it’s great to see that support for Ukraine continues unabated in 2023.

[Rihab]

Why do we keep making up excuses. Just admit already that we can't send tanks because we only have like 3 left that drive. Everyone knows it's true.

[Rihab]

Trash.

[theMathematician]

Come on Germany! The U.K. is sending its Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine which are state of the art and hugely capable but apparently the conditions in Ukraine would be better suited by the German made Leopard 2 tank.

The German defense minister is pretty useless who only got the job due to matching demographic quota. She's had a couple of scandals during the last year, is currently quite unpopular within the population and honestly has got no clue about what she's supposed to do in her office, so don't put too much hope into Germany here.

Anyway, the argument 'We don't want to be a war party.' is ridiculous. Either do nothing or go full on support, but the current 'something in the middle' solution is basically one self-foolery. Every country providing weapons and doing national anti-Russia propaganda de facto is war party, as much as politicians try to deny it.

[stevyy]

Why do we keep making up excuses. Just admit already that we can't send tanks because we only have like 3 left that drive. Everyone knows it's true.

i don't think even have any tanks that are currently working. The joke is that Luxembourg could invade and occupy Germany in a week.

The German military doesn't have tanks, ammunition, guns, underwear, boots, armored vehicles, helicopters or any boats, ships, planes left which would work.

[jordi_89]

The f****** Swiss...