War in Ukraine

[SholasBoy]

Ok we’re gonna close this thread temporarily as it seems to have veered off into a different direction again.

[Rihab]

Are you just discriminated me because of my nationality?

I couldn't care less about anyone's nationality. Whether we crawl out of a woman's or a man's vagina in Berlin, Paris, Moscow, New York, Tel Aviv, Teheran, Mumbai, Manila, Nairobi or Tokyo isn't our choice and says nothing about the kind of person we are. Who we support politically is a choice and it says a lot. If it's Putin, that's really all I need to know.

[marat2408]

Any form of discrimination or harrassment based on someone's sexuality or gender identity is too much and unacceptable. And people who are calling it out and fighting against it aren't overly sensitive, they're brave and standing up for what's right. Which is something Putin puppets wouldn't know sh*t about, so can't even blame ya.

Are you just discriminated me because of my nationality?

[Rihab]

Well, maybe you are too vulnerable person.

Any form of discrimination or harrassment based on someone's sexuality or gender identity is too much and unacceptable. And people who are calling it out and fighting against it aren't overly sensitive, they're brave and standing up for what's right. Which is something Putin puppets wouldn't know sh*t about, so can't even blame ya.

[Blackwyne]

Well, maybe you are too vulnerable person.

The proper term would be too sensitive of a person, not too vulnerable.

But instead of calling jordi_89 too sensitive...maybe, just maybe, you are in the wrong by being too insensitive.

By the way, I still want to know what you mean by "LGBT are obsessed with themselves."

And I'm not exactly sure what LGBT rights has to do with the Russo-Ukranian War. Was LGBT rights some sort of trigger for the Russian invasion or is the LGBT community over there afraid of what happens after the war? I'm confused.

[marat2408]

You have LGBT friends? Great. Then you can ask them if they've ever felt discriminated or if they've ever been harassed because of their sexuality or gender identity.

Well, maybe you are too vulnerable person.

[jordi_89]

Who targets you? In general a quiet environment even in Russia. I have LGBT friends, and they live their lives: study, work, travel etc. Do not overreact.

You have LGBT friends? Great. Then you can ask them if they've ever felt discriminated or if they've ever been harassed because of their sexuality or gender identity.

[marat2408]

Being targeted because you're LGBT is a real thing that happens in every country in the world. The fact that other kinds of violence or discrimination also exist, doesn't negate that.

Who targets you? In general a quiet environment even in Russia. I have LGBT friends, and they live their lives: study, work, travel etc. Do not overreact.

[jordi_89]

Many people face it, not only LGBT.

Being targeted because you're LGBT is a real thing that happens in every country in the world. The fact that other kinds of violence or discrimination also exist, doesn't negate that.

[marat2408]

If no one cared no one would be harassing us in real life and on social media, politicians wouldn't be legislating against us, conservative media wouldn't be talking about us in a negative way. I could go on. But it's an undeniable reality most of us go through on a daily basis just for existing in an heteronormative world.

Many people face it, not only LGBT.

[jordi_89]

Most of LGBT even don't know what they are fighting for. No one cares about your sexual orientation. Live your life.

If no one cared no one would be harassing us in real life and on social media, politicians wouldn't be legislating against us, conservative media wouldn't be talking about us in a negative way. I could go on. But it's an undeniable reality most of us go through on a daily basis just for existing in an heteronormative world.

[marat2408]

More like the world is too obsessed with us. If we were just allowed to exist without our mere existence being debated constantly, we wouldn't need to be so loud.

Most of LGBT even don't know what they are fighting for. No one cares about your sexual orientation. Live your life.

[jordi_89]

Btw no one denies that Ukraine has a lot of homophobic people, but polls show that the entire East of Europe is very homophobic as well. It's not that Ukraine is homophobic and her neighbours aren't. It's that they share the same hatred towards us for various political, religious, cultural and historical "reasons". If anything, it's a miracle that "only" around 60% of Ukrainians are homophobic considering +80% of Russians are. The current Ukrainian administration isn't actively persecuting the LGBT community at least. The same can't be said about Russia's administration.

[jordi_89]

I think LGBT is too obsessed with themselves.

More like the world is too obsessed with us. If we were just allowed to exist without our mere existence being debated constantly, we wouldn't need to be so loud.

[zagan0401]

Can you imagine what Berlin/Germany would be like under the Ukrainian regime?

Much of the underground community of LGBTs from the left-wing scene, radical socialists, communists, young left-libertarians, etc., would already be imprisoned or dead. Much of the architecture and architectural history of Berlin, in its eastern part, would have to be rebuilt, renamed, altered in every way.

Clara Zetkin and Rosa Luxemburg could not be honored. The entire Mitte would have to be renewed.

This is the result of the 2015 "memory laws".

Indeed, overnight, the Holocaust perpetrated by the Germans becomes a heroic episode of nationalists liberating Germany from the judgment and threat of foreign enemies such as German and Polish Jews. Genocidals like Himmler become "war heroes". This was the result of a series of policies about Stepan Bandera that began at the beginning of the century and peaked in the 2010 decision of Viktor Yushchenko.

It's much deeper than a small restriction of laws on LGBTs.

Even though there has been a top-down imposition of some laws to follow the EU membership protocol, and the rejection against LGBTs has decreased (maybe because the war effort has directed hatred elsewhere), still 40% of the population say they are openly against LGBTs.

[Blackwyne]

What do you mean with that?

Same.

I think I understand what marat2408 is trying to say but I'm not sure and I need confirmation

[theMathematician]

What do you mean with that?

[marat2408]

I think LGBT is too obsessed with themselves.

[zagan0401]

There are thousands of Ukrainian LGBT refugees in major European cities who no longer want to go back to their father. Don't generalize the community's position.

And I would be ashamed to fight for a supposed patriotic construct that wants to kill me.

The images below, all the evidence that Ukraine is far from being a Western and free country. Not even a display of pride is possible to hold without being threatened by neo-Nazis and religious fundamentalists.

[zagan0401]

Your words are russian propaganda. You are justifying a genocide of ukrainians and justify action of the empires agains local nation which they are trying to conquer.

Fo other users, not you, you are just ...

Pride celebrations happening in war-torn Kharkiv as LGBTQ community fights for rights


https://gwaramedia.com/en/lesbian-we...kivpride-2023/


And this maight to break our brazilian-polish pro russian friend: Ukrainian gay community is supporting its not so perfect state aith all those descriminations and other shit:

His words are Ukrainian neo-Nazi propaganda, which justifies the genocide of 200,000 Jewish civilians and 200,000 Christian Poles in war crimes of 1943 and 1945. And the worst, you have the speech of a fifth column of the United States against Europe, which has been a destroyed continent with disinvestments in all areas due to efforts to finance the amateur army of your country. The country that has the highest rates of violence against the LGBT population among European Union members and applicants.

Look at how the war propaganda of the American media is easily contradicted by serious European journalism, when they were free to do so before the war

In May, about a dozen members of a far-right group raided a screening of an LGBT+ film jointly organised by KyivPride, breaking windows and throwing a flare and a teargas canister into the premises, KyivPride said on Facebook.

A Kyiv police spokeswoman said criminal proceedings under the article of hooliganism had been launched over the assault on Kortbi and the film screening unrest.

Two days later, members of another far-right group stormed events organised by LGBT+ rights group Insight in Kyiv and the city of Odessa.

Vandals also attacked the Odessa office of another LGBT+ organisation, LGBT Association LIGA, the groups said.

“If the police had detained those attackers that tried to disrupt Insight’s event that day, then they wouldn’t have come to our office and broken our windows,” said LIGA chairman Oleg Alyokhin.

[franklex]

Die Zeit also showed that it was not possible to hold LGBT parades in Ukraine without being beaten by Ukrainian neo-Nazi ultra-nationalists, with the leniency of Ukrainian public authorities.

Ukraine is not the paradise of freedom and Western values fighting against the Russian barbarians. You don't fight fascism with more fascism.

Your words are russian propaganda. You are justifying a genocide of ukrainians and justify action of the empires agains local nation which they are trying to conquer.

Fo other users, not you, you are just ...

Pride celebrations happening in war-torn Kharkiv as LGBTQ community fights for rights


https://gwaramedia.com/en/lesbian-we...kivpride-2023/


And this maight to break our brazilian-polish pro russian friend: Ukrainian gay community is supporting its not so perfect state aith all those descriminations and other shit:

[franklex]

Especially since all the money and resources we are sending to Ukraine is actually poisoning our own economy.

I know that. This is not the case of the US only. I know germans for example thinking the same way. But the truth is that back in 2020 duing the pandemic many governments "printed" to much moneys which provoked a sky-rocketing inflation in many countries. The negative effects of those actions were delayed. First year eafter the pandemic year the economies were recovering but the consiquences have started to appear only the next years. Many people do not understand that they would have the same problems even without russian invasion of Ukraine. Especially americans which are actually getting profits from selling oil/gas to the EU instead of Russia.
But in the case of the EU, they I would say got a more problems from the russian invasion. But lets be honest, for last decades european politics were "kissing" with putin, especially german and give him trilions of euros, which he is currently using against Ukraine. So long story short is that the EU (Gemany and France) for long period were giving a lot of moneys to Russia, ignorring vocies of the Estern European Nations (like Poland, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia) and I am not even talking about Crimea in 2014 and Georgia in 2008.

This is from the money perspective only.
From the secuity view many americans do not understand that it is easier to support Ukraine rather sending their trroops to protect Poland in a few years if Ukraine will fall and russia will mobilize ukrainians against Poland and so on. I also bet in this case Hungary will leave the EU and Nato and will lett "re-soviet" army go accross into Europe, like it happened with Belarus which let russian troops invade Ukaine from theeir side.

We probably will end up with a Republican president and Congress who will start really scrutinizing and micromanaging Ukraine.

I am really pissed off with some ukrainian politics (actually including Zelensky) and ministers and I want them to report to the whole world even if they need to pie. So I am glad that americans wan to check their rupport being used properly. But I think no matter who eill run the next president chair or seats in congress they will have no better option thensupport Ukaine. They will find the way to say, for example, like Ukraine will pay for that help but as a loan and with they first payments in the future.
I also do remember how Zelensky was not that friendly with Beiden and nowdays they are like dad and son. And I also do remember how Zelensky was friendly with Trump and now he doesnt not even remember his at all. So I kinda feel like those who hate each other will smile into the cameras after their elections in a few years...


Also, my personal response to you is to - thank you for the support.

[Blackwyne]

Update from the ground in Ukraine:

Support and Elections
Ukrine will become a one of key topics in the futher US elections. It would not just possible to be an opposite. I am SURE none of the US parties will stop supporting Ukraine. Lets be honest they DO NOT MUCH. For Ukraine it is huge support, but, please, 3% of all the US military budget - it is NOTHING. And for this 3% Ukraine has ruined half of the russian army. Even Trump would be agree on this good deal. Also lets look at that this support for Ukraine now its free for Ukraine. The US already agreed on the landlease for Ukraine, but did not used it yet. In the case of landlease Ukraine will make or should do paybacks for support. Generally debates in the US all around that Ukraine is getting free support but not much people are against of the support of itself.

Any of democats or republicans do understand that supporting Ukrraine is cheaper then suppoting turned into war Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and Estonia, if Ukraine fails.

Also I see a "smart" delay with F-16 and ATACAMS, which will allow Ukraine to free its lands and got a success. So the US finally agred on f-16 when the Beiden needs. So firejets will be very useful next year, right during the elections in the US, which will add points to democrats when they will need them. If the US would give them earlier, Ukraine would already free its lands and it would not matter at this point in the US elections. This is also clear for republicans so that is also the point for them to force Beiden to give Ukraine more now so this have no inpact during the elections in 2024 or limit the support so they could say that Beiden failed, but we know what to do. Update from the ground in Ukraine:

I hear you and I agree

But Americans are getting really fed up with what's going on. Especially since all the money and resources we are sending to Ukraine is actually poisoning our own economy.

We probably will end up with a Republican president and Congress who will start really scrutinizing and micromanaging Ukraine.

[jordi_89]

This would be true if NATO entered the de facto war with the military resources of more than 30 countries, with an army of more than 8 million soldiers, and thus showed Russia that it would not be easy.

But on the contrary, it has taken food from the mouths of the starving children of Andalusia or the outskirts of London to transfer to a half-army, which lacks the technique, resources and military intelligence to defeat Poland, much less the second largest military force on the planet.

In February 2022, Die Zeit heard complaints from Russian-speaking Ukrainian refugees in Kiev of mistreatment, abandonment, physical and moral violence. Since 2010, historical truth cannot be taught in Ukrainian schools by force of law. It cannot be said that their so-called "nationalism" of the 1940s was Nazi collaborationist and that he perpetrated Jewish genocide and ethnic cleansing.

Die Zeit also showed that it was not possible to hold LGBT parades in Ukraine without being beaten by Ukrainian neo-Nazi ultra-nationalists, with the leniency of Ukrainian public authorities.

Ukraine is not the paradise of freedom and Western values fighting against the Russian barbarians. You don't fight fascism with more fascism.

Angela Merkel strove with all her might together with the French leadership to draw Minsk I and II, to avoid this humanitarian hecatomb that we have today.

Ukraine, with its nationalist psychosis, lack of historical and diplomatic knowledge, has systematically flouted and ignored the treaties it itself signed, violating international law, continuing to bomb civilian areas in territories held by separatist rebels.

What? Andalucía has had a poor economy for decades, and now that it has a far-right government things are going even worse for the working class there. The EU and NATO "not giving them money" has little to do with that. Even if they funded the crap out of them, the rampant corruption and patronage in that region will prevent it from getting out of having +20% of people unemployed and around 25-30% of people on the verge of being broke. :/

Btw about Ukraine, I think you're taking some things out of context (of their way of building their own nationality / nationalism), and I've seen lots of tankies do that on Twitter so I'm not gonna try and fight that again (cause it's exhausting) but I'll just say that Ukraine is a broken nation that's constantly been threatened or colonised by Russia (and Russian nationalism), and in times of crisis some people will go to the extremes to feel "safe" (it's happening all across Eastern Europe, not just Ukraine, so you can imagine WHO is the cause of that, and for once the US is not the main culprit). What's been done to Eastern Ukraine (population replacement and straight up genocide) is inexcusable, and as radical as it may sound, I think all the Russian-speaking people that moved during the past century to those parts of Ukraine (to decrease the amount of ethnic Ukrainians there) should move back to Russia. There the situation will have been solved. Russia would have the increase in population they're craving for, and Ukraine would have their lands (they've had for over a 100 years) back. Russia's nationalism and expansionism is a cancer that needs to be removed. Because what they've done to Ukraine in the past 20 years, they've also done to Georgia, Chechnya and Moldova. And the West's passive reaction to this will only fuel China's expansionism in Taiwan (and all the islands they claim in the South China Sea), Israel's expansionism in Palestine, and who knows, maybe when a far-right government takes power in England or Spain they will "finish" what they started with the Scots (in England's case) or the Catalans and the Basques (in Spain's case). Sounds dramatic, but things are not good, and I'm so tired of people (not you, just in general) siding with the big evil empires just because they don't see them as evil as other big evil empires. And we're losing linguistic and ethnic diversity in so many places because of these empires.

[zagan0401]

If we're not Ukrainian, why is this war a nightmare that has to "end" (by doing what Russia wants)? It's not our call, it's the people of Ukraine that get to decide. If It was my land being invaded by a foreign government (that happens to be fascist), I would not want to surrender. And if some Europeans or Americans complain that the war effort is to expensive for them or too annoying, well, boohoo. We have to fight fascism everyday. Imagine telling Palestinians "stop resisting Israel's advance, just resign and make peace with them" (or to the people of Yemen).
And if Ukraine ends up losing the war in 1-2 years, that will have horrible consequences to the entire Eastern Europe, and it will be mostly Russia's fault, but also the West's fault for not supporting them as we should have. I think it's our responsibility to, as I already said, stop fascism, nazism and all forms of authoritarianism. The US doesn't care about that, the UK doesn't care much about that either, and Europe sometimes cares about it, while other times it doesn't. That's one of the many reasons why the world is such a messed up place (and why Russia, China and the US take advantage of that). But if we're not even capable of helping our next door neighbours, then what's the point of all these European and Global institutions.

This would be true if NATO entered the de facto war with the military resources of more than 30 countries, with an army of more than 8 million soldiers, and thus showed Russia that it would not be easy.

But on the contrary, it has taken food from the mouths of the starving children of Andalusia or the outskirts of London to transfer to a half-army, which lacks the technique, resources and military intelligence to defeat Poland, much less the second largest military force on the planet.

In February 2022, Die Zeit heard complaints from Russian-speaking Ukrainian refugees in Kiev of mistreatment, abandonment, physical and moral violence. Since 2010, historical truth cannot be taught in Ukrainian schools by force of law. It cannot be said that their so-called "nationalism" of the 1940s was Nazi collaborationist and that he perpetrated Jewish genocide and ethnic cleansing.

Die Zeit also showed that it was not possible to hold LGBT parades in Ukraine without being beaten by Ukrainian neo-Nazi ultra-nationalists, with the leniency of Ukrainian public authorities.

Ukraine is not the paradise of freedom and Western values fighting against the Russian barbarians. You don't fight fascism with more fascism.

Angela Merkel strove with all her might together with the French leadership to draw Minsk I and II, to avoid this humanitarian hecatomb that we have today.

Ukraine, with its nationalist psychosis, lack of historical and diplomatic knowledge, has systematically flouted and ignored the treaties it itself signed, violating international law, continuing to bomb civilian areas in territories held by separatist rebels.