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  • Originally posted by menime123
    Originally posted by Speechless
    menime please, 'BEYONCE' is already one of the most iconic albums of the last years! Her impact is undeniable

    Except on the singles chart
    The fact that Beyoncé was able to realise and create such a project as BEYONCÉ in an environment where most acts careers depend on those quick little singles is just impressive.

    Just look at the last 5 years, if you would scrap the single results from the so-called "pop business" you probably only will be left with Adele's 21 and Beyoncé's BEYONCÉ with some good steady sales.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by aaliyahman
      Menime, you keep passing over what people are saying even though they are substantiating a valid argument. The magazines, the 'best album of 2013 inclusions', the 'beyonce is my icon and why I started singing' said by so many female artists, male artists and even indie acts, and yes the pull a Beyonce. No one can do it so recently as it's such a big ordeal whether the impact will be the same and then suffer the eternal comparison. The David Bowie argument is wack, you said he had a single out first and then surprised with an album. Beyonce dropped an album with no single, no press, NOTHING. Not even on a typical launch day.

      I can understand it is hard to feel that 'the influence crown' is slipping from Madonna, but it has. She influenced so so much for so long but her recent outputs not including the superbowl era have done nothing but paint her as a bit weird especially her last musical outputs overly sexualised and a bit try hard uneccisary in the general public. Obviously her legacy is intact unless she does a Mariah or Britney.

      Almost all black female 'rnb' singers that are primarily in America are all either in the shadow of or following the template of Beyonce. Even older stars I.e Tamar Braxton the 'diva' persona and how many people think of it is 'sasha fierce'. Point blank period, I really believe when most people see or hear the word diva (40 and under) they will think of beyonce first.
      Firstly, I've never once said Madonna was the most influential popstar within this thread. So I'm not sure why people are throwing that in my face.

      As I've said, in order to be the most influential there has to be a tangible measurement. The fact that Beyonce inspired people to work in music isn't a tangible measurement - if we were to go on this, then why aren't the Spice Girls considered influential? Britney, Adele, Miley have all said they were inspired by the Spice Girls. But this inspiration is not tangible, and there not quantifiable to amount to being used to measure how influential someone is.

      You misinterpret the David Bowie argument - David Bowie didn't drop a surprise album, he dropped a surprise single. Yes Beyonce dropped more songs, but everyone knew her album was coming out at some point - no one even knew Bowie had been recording.

      I don't even consider Beyonce to be a diva actually. Beyonce refers to her own inspirations a lot - MJ, Janet. Whitney etc - now they were divas....
      Disco dancing with the lights down low…

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Jesper
        Originally posted by menime123
        Originally posted by Speechless
        menime please, 'BEYONCE' is already one of the most iconic albums of the last years! Her impact is undeniable

        Except on the singles chart
        The fact that Beyoncé was able to realise and create such a project as BEYONCÉ in an environment where most acts careers depend on those quick little singles is just impressive.

        Just look at the last 5 years, if you would scrap the single results from the so-called "pop business" you probably only will be left with Adele's 21 and Beyoncé's BEYONCÉ with some good steady sales.
        There are a large number of acts that don't rely on singles, and they are mainly people with a long term career in the business. Which of course Beyonce has, but considering she's still under 40 and a mainstream act, she should be selling singles by the bucketload. None of the songs on 4 reached global iconic status to the extent IASF singles did, and BEYONCE singles aren't anywhere near as big as those from 4 were. Beyonce used to have songs at #1 for 10 weeks. Whatever happened to her making songs that could do that?
        Disco dancing with the lights down low…

        Comment


        • Originally posted by preyan
          Originally posted by menime123
          Originally posted by Speechless
          menime please, 'BEYONCE' is already one of the most iconic albums of the last years! Her impact is undeniable

          Except on the singles chart
          I'd rather sell albums than singles. That's where the real money is at
          Actually that's a myth.... to an extent. Someone of Beyonce's calibre should be able to sell a million singles, ringtones, inspire YouTube plays and be constantly played on the radio. All of this generates revenue, and a radio hit will be played years and decades after the album stops selling, generating additional revenue.

          For most acts the album is where the money's at, but someone like Beyonce - who can be at #1 for ten weeks - the single is just as important as album sales.
          Disco dancing with the lights down low…

          Comment


          • Originally posted by spiritboy
            If you don't think Beyoncé isn't influental enough, why are you still in her thread? Her performances, her work ethic has always influenced many stars. She's more influental than Madonna or any other big name these days.

            - Single Ladies going viral
            - Most talked about/tweeted Super Bowl performance
            - A selling out recent tour without new material
            - Surprise release album that change the name and will be called as "Pulling a Beyoncé".

            They're some of the recent things she's done and influenced younger generations. She earns good money without touring because she influences labels to work with her.
            I don't dispute these. However Single Ladies was 6 years ago, and many acts sell tours without new material - ask anyone who ever went on a greatest hits tour. Pulling a Beyonce maybe a term, but it hasn't influenced anyone to do the same yet has it.
            Disco dancing with the lights down low…

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Speechless
              menime please, 'BEYONCE' is already one of the most iconic albums of the last years! Her impact is undeniable
              I'm not sure it's iconic. It's a good seller, yes, but it's not one of those albums that form part of an 'essential' album lists. I think Adele's 21 is, but this one isn't.
              Disco dancing with the lights down low…

              Comment


              • Originally posted by menime123
                Originally posted by Speechless
                menime please, 'BEYONCE' is already one of the most iconic albums of the last years! Her impact is undeniable

                Except on the singles chart
                Who needs single success, when you can SCAN a multi-platinum album (not shippments) at full price of $15.99; without any discounts or heavy promo, in the biggest music market in the world (US). There some artists with single success, yet they can't sell an album to save their lives.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by menime123
                  Originally posted by Speechless
                  menime please, 'BEYONCE' is already one of the most iconic albums of the last years! Her impact is undeniable
                  I'm not sure it's iconic. It's a good seller, yes, but it's not one of those albums that form part of an 'essential' album lists. I think Adele's 21 is, but this one isn't.
                  Well that's your opinion. Fortunately the music critics and general public feel differently.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by menime123
                    Originally posted by preyan
                    Originally posted by menime123
                    Originally posted by Speechless
                    menime please, 'BEYONCE' is already one of the most iconic albums of the last years! Her impact is undeniable

                    Except on the singles chart
                    I'd rather sell albums than singles. That's where the real money is at
                    Actually that's a myth.... to an extent. Someone of Beyonce's calibre should be able to sell a million singles, ringtones, inspire YouTube plays and be constantly played on the radio. All of this generates revenue, and a radio hit will be played years and decades after the album stops selling, generating additional revenue.

                    For most acts the album is where the money's at, but someone like Beyonce - who can be at #1 for ten weeks - the single is just as important as album sales.
                    You claim to be a Beyoncé fan, yet somehow you missed her message about the music industry, from her HBO documentary. Prior before the release of her current album, Beyonce had stated she wasn't interested in quick singles success,, but a solid body of work (an album). Clearly, she achieved her goal with this album, without comprising her art. An artist that's sticks to their guns with their artistic vision, should be comended and respected.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by menime123
                      Originally posted by Wardo
                      Originally posted by menime123
                      and Beyonce's 'message' has always been about female empowerment, something that I don't think she ever fully communicated well, originate or stick with.
                      I don't buy this either. It's some kind of easy message to deliver. It seems like if you're singing about sex, either you're a whore or a feminist. I mean, it's 2014, move on!

                      You miss my point. Beyonce had always stood for female empowerment, right the way back to Independent Woman. She has an all female band, writes songs that have feminist tendencies, and has continued this theme throughout her career, up to and including her recent album.

                      It's nothing to do with being a whore or a feminist, although I do believe you can be both quite comfortably.

                      But Beyonce IS a feminist. She publicly dismisses the the idea of gender equality, but at the same time is happy to name her show 'Mrs. Carter', put her career on hold for her family (note that her husband did not), and it's little things like this that send out mixed messages - and why I don't think her message has been communicated all that well.

                      Why is she encouraging the world to know her as Jay Z's wife? Why must she label herself Mrs. Carter? How can she talk about equality when she gives her name - her identity - away so freely to a member of the opposite sex? Why must she make that commitment and not he?

                      It'll be these questions that will be discussed on the university course, as Beyonce has a lot of feminist traits in her public persona, but a wealth of personal actions (that have seeped into her career) that contradicts her public persona.
                      Yikes! She didn't give away her last name. She goes by Beyoncé Knowles Carter. Just because she's a feminist, doesn't mean she can't show love to the man she's in love with, and married to. That's like saying every married woman that ever took their husband's last name is a sellout to feminist movement. I mean, who are you to tell Beyoncé not to acknowledge and show love to her husband? FYI, Jay-Z also took Beyoncé's last name.

                      Comment


                      • What a surprise. A madonna stan in a Beyoncé thread, stirring up negativity with snotty comments.

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                        • menime123 seems to have an opinion and something to say against every argument, so I guess nobody is right or wrong. I guess I step aside from this thread until this topic has blown over, since it is going into circles now.

                          Comment


                          • Menime I brought up madonna as you have done. I didn't say you said she was the most influential you were just harping on about her influence. Check your own posts.

                            As I said your David Bowie argument is weak. He dropped a single and then an album. Promotion. Beyonce dropped an album out of nowhere. The argument that everyone expected her album but not his single is also weak as Beyonce fans had been expecting an album all year. But so have David Bowie fans I mean what is the expectation of musicians, to release music.

                            Then the absolute howlers you dropped. The spice girls didn't have influence?!?! Beyonce isn't a Diva? I thought you were here to stimulate a 'debate'. All you've done is try and discredit Beyonce looking for tangible facts yet saying no when getting them. Then throwing shade about single sales... Drunk in love was number 2 in America. Did you see britains got talent? Who is yangus marshals performance based on...yup beyonce and her routines.
                            "What goes around comes back around my baby"

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                            • this thing iis nonsense. are we talking to wall?

                              based on how he responed to desree post, there's no point to quote and answer him.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by aaliyahman
                                Menime I brought up madonna as you have done. I didn't say you said she was the most influential you were just harping on about her influence. Check your own posts.

                                As I said your David Bowie argument is weak. He dropped a single and then an album. Promotion. Beyonce dropped an album out of nowhere. The argument that everyone expected her album but not his single is also weak as Beyonce fans had been expecting an album all year. But so have David Bowie fans I mean what is the expectation of musicians, to release music.

                                Then the absolute howlers you dropped. The spice girls didn't have influence?!?! Beyonce isn't a Diva? I thought you were here to stimulate a 'debate'. All you've done is try and discredit Beyonce looking for tangible facts yet saying no when getting them. Then throwing shade about single sales... Drunk in love was number 2 in America. Did you see britains got talent? Who is yangus marshals performance based on...yup beyonce and her routines.

                                Ah, well no, I did not see BGT as I boycott that show (it was the worst job I ever had, working on thst show). But I've acknowledged Beyonce's routines inspire people, just not as they once did as the peak for that was Single Ladies.

                                David Bowie hadn't released music in 14 years and was basically retired. I'm sure no one was Stanning or cursing him for not releasing an album they didn't know he wasn't working on

                                I didn't say the Spices didn't have influence, my point was that they did how influence over some of the biggest acts out there now, but just because they had influenced some of today's stars doesn't mean they are still influential - I was applying that point to the argument that you cannot measure Beyonce's influence on current stars because how on earth can you measure influence in terms of career path?

                                Diva of course is down to interpretation. Beyonce doesn't have a fit, throw shoes or mobile phones etc when she doesn't get her way. To me a Diva is a woman who is camp, believes she is fabulous, and has a sharp tongue. Beyonce is actually rather humane in her public person, doesn't seem to have placed herself on a pedestal and still seems routed. Solange on the other hand.....

                                But again the tangible facts are missing. How someone feels is not a tangible fact. Facts are cultural movements, a deliberate shift in existing trends. We cannot use the argument that Beyonce ONCE UPON A TIME inspired someone to become a part of the music industry, otherwise if the same argument was applied to Michael Jackson he'd be top of this influential list, not Beyonce.

                                But no, Beyonce's at the top because of something she's done over the last 12 months that has inspired people more than any other star. All I'm asking is what on earth could this be? Because I don't see.

                                If anyone has had the most influence over culture in the last 12 months it's Miley Cyrus - a large number of young girls began copying her hairstyle, she brought twerking to the forefront of the mainstream, inspired a large number of copycat videos on youtube, and said a lot of things about a few topical things on the global stage.

                                I'm by no means a Miley fan (and I literally mean NOT AT ALL) but her impact on culture has been greater than Beyonce's over the last 12 months. Beyonce in comparison, has kept her head down, done the job and went home.
                                Disco dancing with the lights down low…

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by Shayonce
                                  this thing iis nonsense. are we talking to wall?

                                  based on how he responed to desree post, there's no point to quote and answer him.
                                  Actually my response is legal fact. If charges are brought again anyone, for any reason, saying you didn't know it was wrong doesn't excuse what you did. The actual phrasing is 'ignorance of the law is not an excuse'.
                                  Disco dancing with the lights down low…

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Jesper
                                    menime123 seems to have an opinion and something to say against every argument, so I guess nobody is right or wrong. I guess I step aside from this thread until this topic has blown over, since it is going into circles now.
                                    Someone who gets it
                                    Disco dancing with the lights down low…

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by Rocksteady09
                                      Originally posted by menime123
                                      Originally posted by Wardo
                                      Originally posted by menime123
                                      and Beyonce's 'message' has always been about female empowerment, something that I don't think she ever fully communicated well, originate or stick with.
                                      I don't buy this either. It's some kind of easy message to deliver. It seems like if you're singing about sex, either you're a whore or a feminist. I mean, it's 2014, move on!

                                      You miss my point. Beyonce had always stood for female empowerment, right the way back to Independent Woman. She has an all female band, writes songs that have feminist tendencies, and has continued this theme throughout her career, up to and including her recent album.

                                      It's nothing to do with being a whore or a feminist, although I do believe you can be both quite comfortably.

                                      But Beyonce IS a feminist. She publicly dismisses the the idea of gender equality, but at the same time is happy to name her show 'Mrs. Carter', put her career on hold for her family (note that her husband did not), and it's little things like this that send out mixed messages - and why I don't think her message has been communicated all that well.

                                      Why is she encouraging the world to know her as Jay Z's wife? Why must she label herself Mrs. Carter? How can she talk about equality when she gives her name - her identity - away so freely to a member of the opposite sex? Why must she make that commitment and not he?

                                      It'll be these questions that will be discussed on the university course, as Beyonce has a lot of feminist traits in her public persona, but a wealth of personal actions (that have seeped into her career) that contradicts her public persona.
                                      Yikes! She didn't give away her last name. She goes by Beyoncé Knowles Carter. Just because she's a feminist, doesn't mean she can't show love to the man she's in love with, and married to. That's like saying every married woman that ever took their husband's last name is a sellout to feminist movement. I mean, who are you to tell Beyoncé not to acknowledge and show love to her husband? FYI, Jay-Z also took Beyoncé's last name.

                                      Again, that's in her personal life. On the world stage she has declared herself MRS CARTER, not MRS KNOWLES CARTER. There is a world of difference, and how her public perceives her. There is nothing wrong with feminism (which I strongly support actually), nor us there anything wrong with being a traditionalist. But on the public stage it's best you don't blur the lines when you have taken such a strong stand for female empowerment.

                                      In terms of the last name thing, A surname shows you BELONG to that family. Historically - up to less than 100 years ago - women weren't allowed to own anything. Everything was their fathers, and then their husbands. That's why the surname distinction is important, and yes, it a sell out to what feminism is. The change of surname literally means you belong to your husband and his family, and I think it's shockingly outdated as a concept.

                                      Therefore for someone like Beyonce who has pushed female empowerment, I don't think it was right to publicly declare herself as belonging to Jay Z. She belongs to herself, and that's what an independent woman is all about.
                                      Disco dancing with the lights down low…

                                      Comment


                                      • ^^^^No. She has publicly acknowledge herself as Beyoncé Knowles Carter. As far as the world is concern, before she got married and after she got married, she is simply known as Beyoncé. You can spare me the last name lecture, and your narrow minded rants of feminism. LOL @ a happily married declaring her love for husband, equating to being a property to her husband. Never mind she owns and runs her own company (Parkwood), and handles her own business, separately from her husband's. You clearly have misguided idea of who Beyoncé is.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by menime123
                                          Originally posted by Shayonce
                                          this thing iis nonsense. are we talking to wall?

                                          based on how he responed to desree post, there's no point to quote and answer him.
                                          Actually my response is legal fact. If charges are brought again anyone, for any reason, saying you didn't know it was wrong doesn't excuse what you did. The actual phrasing is 'ignorance of the law is not an excuse'.
                                          Just because you state your opinion, doesn't make it factual. Having scroll through some of your postings, it's laced with opinions and inaccurate information.

                                          Comment


                                          • Seriously, that's legal fact, not my opinion.

                                            http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignorant ... on_excusat
                                            Disco dancing with the lights down low…

                                            Comment


                                            • It doesn't matter, your agenda has been revealed.

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                                              • I am with menime on this one. In order to suit up to the very nature of a university degree, a subject must be of paramount importance to an area of study. And Beyonce will probably be in 30 40 years eligible for something like that. Right now, she is a feminist just as any other feminist (in the sense that she doesn't have her very own agenda or statements, a personal philosophy about feminism, she just helps ideas already established to gain popularity), a Internet phenomenon (Single Ladies) and, indeed a consistent theme of marketing strategy. Apart from that, she is just another icon (charts, especially when it comes to random singles are not relevant - does anyone remember, I don't know, the number 1 single in USA in week 30, 2004? - maybe you happen to know the song but only it that songs happens to really be popular). As its the case with most, popularity and legacy are rarely defined by actual charts.

                                                I can see the point in her being a topic on a discussion on contemporary musical industry, but an entire course based solely on that. Give me a break.
                                                Love of God is not always the same as love of good. - Herman Hesse

                                                Comment


                                                • Originally posted by Shortie
                                                  I am with menime on this one. In order to suit up to the very nature of a university degree, a subject must be of paramount importance to an area of study. And Beyonce will probably be in 30 40 years eligible for something like that. Right now, she is a feminist just as any other feminist (in the sense that she doesn't have her very own agenda or statements, a personal philosophy about feminism, she just helps ideas already established to gain popularity), a Internet phenomenon (Single Ladies) and, indeed a consistent theme of marketing strategy. Apart from that, she is just another icon (charts, especially when it comes to random singles are not relevant - does anyone remember, I don't know, the number 1 single in USA in week 30, 2004? - maybe you happen to know the song but only it that songs happens to really be popular). As its the case with most, popularity and legacy are rarely defined by actual charts.

                                                  I can see the point in her being a topic on a discussion on contemporary musical industry, but an entire course based solely on that. Give me a break.
                                                  I think this conversation has strayed a fair bit from the 'is it right to have a Beyonce course'. Beyonce is obviously being used to bring some sensationalism to what would be a pretty usual feminism in culture or society course. She's only being used as a nucleus to draw themes together, as most courses are.

                                                  Menime, you are right, Miley Cyrus has been hugely influential. A negative influece. No one is denying that fact and this whole conversation does not have a set panethon on influence. All or none can be influential as we are all individual.

                                                  Just tell me though, how are you defining, a 'shift in culture'. That isn't tangible whatsoever especially at the current time. It's something we can only really see in hindsight.

                                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_bowie#Discography

                                                  Where are the 14 years? David Bowie's fans are largely around his age (although my best friend from uni stans hard for him). He promoted his album, yes it was after a long time but the strategy was completely different and IMO should have had more impact. It didn't as his fans are largely not the itunes crowd. That's what makes Beyonce's strategy different. She hit the nail on the head and blew away the competitors and got her album almost forced on the 'best of' 2013.

                                                  Have you read how many articles came out saying how Beyonce and her release 'changed the game'. Is that not a cultural shift? Is that not tangible because you can't see someone twerking or cutting their hair? I see Surfboart or Flawless T shirts on a daily on women and men. Is it because you don;t see them that it doesn't count?
                                                  "What goes around comes back around my baby"

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                                                  • What does Bee have to do to be considered influential?
                                                    Kissing black saints in a church? Controversy surrounding her every movement?

                                                    I mean, nah.

                                                    @spiritboy, great post, really!
                                                    Just a DEVIANT, PERTURBED, DERANGED, MACABRE, MANIAC, LUNATIC, IRRATIONAL PSYCHO-TO-BE.

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