Are black artists OVERrepresented at the Grammys?

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Postby TIfan » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:47 am

Debs_Wild wrote:
TIfan wrote:I played a role. I will agree to disagree, and move on, but I will always fight for my black people. Always!
That's racist! I'm actually offended. :-?

You should fight for ALL people, no matter what their color is - white, black, yellow, etc.
Here you go. You will have to be offended if that's how you feel. Fighting for my people does not mean fighting against anyone else. When blacks do wrong, I call them out as well. Not afraid to do so also. But I will not sit back and watch others blame blacks for their issues. Saying blacks are overrepresented due to the lack of Asian winners calls for me to set a few people straight. My whole point was, Blacks simply want to be recognised for the popular genres they created. Some mentioned things such as theater and film which was created by whites. When have the Academy or the Tony's not shown love to white people????

Like I said, when people come for my people for some made up reasons, I will stand by them, and not back down. So bring it!
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Postby TIfan » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:54 am

biscuits wrote:It became a case of black vs. white instead of a double homicide trial
Who was in the wrong? You said my comment is the reason OJ got off, but did not mention the prosecutor who stated that he had targeted blacks and fixed the evidence That would make blacks guilty. That is what really turned everything around. Are you saying blacks were in the wrong? We could give a damn about OJ Simpson. We were simply tired of these corrupt cops and prosecutors.
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Postby biscuits » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:01 am

This trial should have been about the murder of Nicole and Ron, nothing else. The LAPD were not on trial. What that cop did is definitely wrong and it’s a crime in itself that he was never properly punished. Unfortunately, it took over the trial which led to thousands of people celebrating in the streets because a murderer walked free

The point I’m trying to make is, I don’t think it should ever be a case of black vs white. It should be right vs wrong
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Postby TIfan » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:05 am

biscuits wrote:This trial should have been about the murder of Nicole and Ron, nothing else. The LAPD were not on trial. What that cop did is definitely wrong and it’s a crime in itself that he was never properly punished. Unfortunately, it took over the trial which led to thousands of people celebrating in the streets because a murderer walked free

The point I’m trying to make is, I don’t think it should ever be a case of black vs white. It should be right vs wrong
I agree. It should have been a murder trial. But, there was a tape that changed it all. I am sure most thought he was guilty, but then the tale was released. That tape was a reminder of all the innocent people that are thrown in jail. Many, nowadays are being released every year due to DNA evidence.
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Postby TIfan » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:13 am

BTW, the word theater came from Greece, but its origins is Africa!
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Postby NothingFails » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:00 pm

I think in terms of actually being shown, the Grammys seem to have a huge disrespect for indie/rock acts.... sure, they will give airtime to legends like U2 or Springsteen or Paul McCartney or somebody, but those are legacy acts who belong to the world and have been around for decades and decades, but every year the rock/alternative catagories are always unbroadcast while such genres as Comedy and Spoken Word gets shown. The biggest insult is the way NARAS treats these bands when they actually do perform, such as when Arcade Fire performed in 2011 after winning AOTY, they got the ending performance where credits were shown even though they had just won the biggest award that night but because they didn't have a song on top 40 radio, they were dismissed as if they should be lucky to be on the stage at all even though they had just won the biggest award, and they did the same thing to Queens Of The Stone Age (a band who has been around 20 years now) in 2014... they wouldn't treat the least of the random Disney princesses with that sort of callousness.

I am aware rock music and guitars in general are not what they used to be, but it seems like the media in general has been so hellbent on burying the genre (perhaps because these bands don't play by the rules and aren't as quickly profitable as a dime-a-dozen pop act) that they make sure these artists don't get proper airtime.
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Postby clh_hilary » Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:26 pm

cheapthrills wrote:I think that's exactly racism - "I refuse to understand you, therefore you are irrelevant" is pretty close to the issue many black people raise about our society. In the US, rap has been a popular genre here for decades - so the general public here would disagree that it is a) a recent phenomenon and b) "not catchy". On sheer cultural relevance, it's embarrassing what a blind spot it is for NARAS (among many).

As far as the R&B vs Rap divide, it's also clear there are issues there. I wouldn't argue that they are necessarily well rewarded. I do think they have a leg up over rap in being apolitical though. Unfortunately, our society has shown in the last few years that we prefer black people when they don't complain about legit social issues.
Do you talk about the Thai military rule? Do you discuss the Sri Lankan civil war with your friends? Do you monitor the mines in Laos? Do you voice your opinions on Hong Kong's democracy movement? Do you check up on the Egyptian presidential election? Do you keep yourself informed about Zapatistas and their actions? Do you post about the unrests in Venezuela? Do you regularly look up the inflation rates in Argentina? Do you pay attention to the currency exchange rates in South Africa? Do you form political opinions about current Indian politicians? Do you understand the Singaporean electoral systems? Have you followed the changes of Macau's GDP? Have you paid attention to the approval ratings of the Australian prime minister? Have you read about the recent pardon from the Peruvian president and why it's controversial? How about indigenous rights in Brazil? How about the Irish constitution and its many problems beyond abortion?

If you haven't paid attention to even just one of these, does it mean you are racist?

Ever if your standard is "it has to be about your own country", are you seriously suggesting that you actually pay attention to everyone everywhere in your country, whatever it is? If people in England don't think about the economy of Cornwall, are they being racist? If Scots don't discuss the political movements in Northern Ireland, are they being racist?

---

A genre can be popular and money-making without entering the mainstream. Classical music is a huge money-making business but it's non-mainstream. Country music is a huge money-making business but it's only occasionally mainstream. Disney Channel is a hugely successful TV channel but it's also not usually mainstream.
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Postby clh_hilary » Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:27 pm

TIfan wrote:Not when everyone is participating. Everyone should gave a fair shot. That's why people complained.
And do Asians and Latinos, two actually hugely underrepresented groups, not deserve to have a shot? Why is Bruno Mars getting criticized for not being black?
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Postby clh_hilary » Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:29 pm

SummerPeur wrote:This is getting a little out of hand now :(.

There’s no true constructive debating going on anymore.
There are facts and there are opinions. People who hold unsubstantiated opinions cannot offer facts, and thus they turn to emotional arguments, sometimes insults.
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Postby clh_hilary » Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:34 pm

Debs_Wild wrote:You should fight for ALL people, no matter what their color is - white, black, yellow, etc.
You don't have to fight for all people, but you shouldn't oppose to it when people from similarly oppressed groups actually get a shot, just like how Bruno Mars is, being the only second Asian and third Latino to win AOTY.

urbanmusik wrote:Fighting for the rights and against mistreatmen of a certain minority doesn’t equal taking away rights from anyone or not wanting rights for other minorities.

Funny enough it’s always the racists that use your argument when trying to disregard civil rights movements

The topic title isn’t wholly accurate and is clearly trying to incite hate.
It does, when people are seemingly criticizing Bruno Mars for winning. Those people are essentially saying only black people are allowed to win awards. Just go read the Billboard article on how his career is now over since he represents people winning over underrepresented groups again.

The title was entirely accurate unless you can prove that there are more black artists proportionally making music. And then you will need to prove that there are more than 22% of musicians who are black.

If you are not a racist and actually believe all races to be equal, you should expect proportional wins. To say black people are not overrepresented because they are better musicians is to preach black superiority as a race in music, and by extension of criticizing Bruno Mars and not even acknowledging the fact that Asians and Latinos are hugely underrepresented, you are saying Asians and Latinos are simply bad races when it comes to music.
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Postby clh_hilary » Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:38 pm

TIfan wrote:Here you go. You will have to be offended if that's how you feel. Fighting for my people does not mean fighting against anyone else. When blacks do wrong, I call them out as well. Not afraid to do so also. But I will not sit back and watch others blame blacks for their issues. Saying blacks are overrepresented due to the lack of Asian winners calls for me to set a few people straight. My whole point was, Blacks simply want to be recognised for the popular genres they created. Some mentioned things such as theater and film which was created by whites. When have the Academy or the Tony's not shown love to white people????

Like I said, when people come for my people for some made up reasons, I will stand by them, and not back down. So bring it!
One strawman after another.

I pointed out the fact that black winners are overrepresented, because proportionally speaking, there have been more black winners than there are black people in the United States of America.

I pointed out the fact that Asians and Latinos are hugely underrepresented because some people are very unfairly criticizing Bruno Mars for winning, as his win somehow represented people continuing to not reward what they claimed to be an underrepresented group. These are two separate points.

Your last strawman was that theatre was created by whites. I said theatre was created by the Greeks, not all white people. Are the Greeks dominating the Academy?
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Postby clh_hilary » Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:40 pm

NothingFails wrote:I think in terms of actually being shown, the Grammys seem to have a huge disrespect for indie/rock acts.... sure, they will give airtime to legends like U2 or Springsteen or Paul McCartney or somebody, but those are legacy acts who belong to the world and have been around for decades and decades, but every year the rock/alternative catagories are always unbroadcast while such genres as Comedy and Spoken Word gets shown. The biggest insult is the way NARAS treats these bands when they actually do perform, such as when Arcade Fire performed in 2011 after winning AOTY, they got the ending performance where credits were shown even though they had just won the biggest award that night but because they didn't have a song on top 40 radio, they were dismissed as if they should be lucky to be on the stage at all even though they had just won the biggest award, and they did the same thing to Queens Of The Stone Age (a band who has been around 20 years now) in 2014... they wouldn't treat the least of the random Disney princesses with that sort of callousness.

I am aware rock music and guitars in general are not what they used to be, but it seems like the media in general has been so hellbent on burying the genre (perhaps because these bands don't play by the rules and aren't as quickly profitable as a dime-a-dozen pop act) that they make sure these artists don't get proper airtime.
I disagree. When there's a random big winner, it's usually either rock or jazz. I think the voters do have a soft spot for rock music, even when the rest of us don't care for them. They are not showing them because the public doesn't care about them, and so it would have hurt their ratings, or at least that's likely to be the rationale behind their decision. It's similar to how country categories are not always shown, and classical categories are I believe never really shown.
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Postby clh_hilary » Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:42 pm

TIfan wrote:BTW, the word theater came from Greece, but its origins is Africa!
Western theatre came from Greece. Oriental theatre came from China. I don't know about theatre elsewhere.

To say its origin was in Africa is the same as saying Egyptians invented paper. They invented one type of paper, but the modern paper, or paper as we know it today, was invented by the Chinese.

There's also the issue of simultaneous inventions - the Mayas and Aztecs didn't copy pyramids from Egyptians, even though the Egyptian pyramids were clearly older.
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Postby NothingFails » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:05 pm

clh_hilary wrote:
NothingFails wrote:I think in terms of actually being shown, the Grammys seem to have a huge disrespect for indie/rock acts.... sure, they will give airtime to legends like U2 or Springsteen or Paul McCartney or somebody, but those are legacy acts who belong to the world and have been around for decades and decades, but every year the rock/alternative catagories are always unbroadcast while such genres as Comedy and Spoken Word gets shown. The biggest insult is the way NARAS treats these bands when they actually do perform, such as when Arcade Fire performed in 2011 after winning AOTY, they got the ending performance where credits were shown even though they had just won the biggest award that night but because they didn't have a song on top 40 radio, they were dismissed as if they should be lucky to be on the stage at all even though they had just won the biggest award, and they did the same thing to Queens Of The Stone Age (a band who has been around 20 years now) in 2014... they wouldn't treat the least of the random Disney princesses with that sort of callousness.

I am aware rock music and guitars in general are not what they used to be, but it seems like the media in general has been so hellbent on burying the genre (perhaps because these bands don't play by the rules and aren't as quickly profitable as a dime-a-dozen pop act) that they make sure these artists don't get proper airtime.
I disagree. When there's a random big winner, it's usually either rock or jazz. I think the voters do have a soft spot for rock music, even when the rest of us don't care for them. They are not showing them because the public doesn't care about them, and so it would have hurt their ratings, or at least that's likely to be the rationale behind their decision. It's similar to how country categories are not always shown, and classical categories are I believe never really shown.
But it's a catch-22, the general public doesn't care because the media has intentionally killed off rock the past decade. The Black Keys and Arctic Monkeys both had albums that were very successful in terms of units shifted, but top 40 radio avoided them while playing acts who sold a fraction of them because they had essentially been told "anything with guitars is bad, push crap to the kids" and even when the Black Keys had two back to back million selling albums, you never heard them outside of rock/indie format stations. The media has deliberately gone out of its way to kill rock/alternative in the mainstream because they prefer pushing puppets who are easier to make a quick buck out of while those genres are most about artists who want a 5-10 year plus career.

The bias against rock/alternative/indie is so bad these days even Billboard changed album chart rules because those are the fans who still actually run out and buy albums so they needed to change things so the pop star selling 3,000 a week ranks about the alternative darling selling 60k the same week but gets no streaming points because the streaming generation avoids that genre like a cancer.
Last edited by NothingFails on Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby TIfan » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:08 pm

clh_hilary wrote:
TIfan wrote:BTW, the word theater came from Greece, but its origins is Africa!
Western theatre came from Greece. Oriental theatre came from China. I don't know about theatre elsewhere.

To say its origin was in Africa is the same as saying Egyptians invented paper. They invented one type of paper, but the modern paper, or paper as we know it today, was invented by the Chinese.

There's also the issue of simultaneous inventions - the Mayas and Aztecs didn't copy pyramids from Egyptians, even though the Egyptian pyramids were clearly older.
The term theater was created by the Greeks, but the action itself was not. The Greeks simply edited something that was being done hundreds of years before they became who they were. The first documented theater show was in Egypt.
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Postby Hugo » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:18 pm

OT as hell, but I read a book by Wilbur Smith set on Ancient Egypt (1780 BCE) and there was a very important scene where the main characters performed a play, they were portraying the gods.

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Postby clh_hilary » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:38 pm

Hugo wrote:OT as hell, but I read a book by Wilbur Smith set on Ancient Egypt (1780 BCE) and there was a very important scene where the main characters performed a play, they were portraying the gods.

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I guess we can say Egyptians invented gods as well and so we must question why Egyptians aren't dominating clergy posts worldwide.
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Postby DnBLover » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:55 pm

I hope this thread doesn't get shutdown just because some mods can't handle proper discussion.

Anyway, I surely want to comment properly when I have the time.

My first issue: the only person riled up in here about Bruno Mars winning the award for not being black is clh_hilary. Who else has shown to be upset about it?

Second issue: fighting for blacks does not equal to fighting against other people. Just like fighting for yourself, for your rights, does not mean you are fighting against everybody else. That argument is purely based on ignorance and if you don't recognize different people have different rights, then you are surely privileged and most likely racist/sexist/homophobic/etc.

Then, Grammys are not an American-exclusive show!!! They are Anglo-Saxonic, but quite a few nominated acts are foreign. Now tell me, if you include all population, are they really overrepresented? That's #1. Second, general demographics do not matter, it matters how many people make music. And a biiig part of mainstream musical production comes from black artists, compared to a tiny part of other American minorities.
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Postby clh_hilary » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:00 pm

TIfan wrote:The term theater was created by the Greeks, but the action itself was not. The Greeks simply edited something that was being done hundreds of years before they became who they were. The first documented theater show was in Egypt.
All academic sources and reputable publications disagree. But I guess one can say Egypt invented religion and indeed invented invention since you clearly don't care about whether the invention was anywhere close to what it is today, or simultaneous inventions.

The Chinese are credited with the invention of paper, despite papyrus paper being much older, because what we know as "paper" is much closer to the Chinese, rather than the Egyptian, invention.
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Postby clh_hilary » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:16 pm

DnBLover wrote:My first issue: the only person riled up in here about Bruno Mars winning the award for not being black is clh_hilary. Who else has shown to be upset about it?
I wasn't talking about UKMIX. I don't frequent UKMIX. In some of my comments, you can see me referring specifically to the Billboard opinion piece that claims his win is seen as a continuous oppression of an underrepresented group, despite him being a minority himself, and in fact suggested that his career might be over after this.

DnBLover wrote:Second issue: fighting for blacks does not equal to fighting against other people. Just like fighting for yourself, for your rights, does not mean you are fighting against everybody else. That argument is purely based on ignorance and if you don't recognize different people have different rights, then you are surely privileged and most likely racist/sexist/homophobic/etc.
A huge strawman due to the fact that you failed to recognize those are two points - 1. black artists are not underrepresented among AOTY winners, 2. Bruno Mars's win does not represent the continuous oppression of an underrepresented group.

DnBLover wrote:Then, Grammys are not an American-exclusive show!!!
Another strawman.

DnBLover wrote:They are Anglo-Saxonic,
No. Only a minority in the United States descended from Britons to begin with, then you get the Scots, the Welsh, and the Irish who were Celtic, not Anglo-Saxon. Then you also get the fact that after the Anglo-Saxon immigrants kicked out the Celts, you got the Viking, the Roman, the Norman takeovers, then the recent waves of Commonwealth and non-Commonwealth immigration. Even Her Majesty The Queen has hardly any Anglo-Saxon blood in her.

DnBLover wrote:Now tell me, if you include all population, are they really overrepresented? That's #1.
Literally dealt with this. China or India alone have more people than the entire African continent (which includes a substantial amount of non-black people).

DnBLover wrote:Second, general demographics do not matter, it matters how many people make music. And a biiig part of mainstream musical production comes from black artists, compared to a tiny part of other American minorities.
Also literally dealt with this. I mentioned that the only other way to say they are not overrepresented is if you can cite sources proving that there are more black musicians out there proportionally, yet everyone, including you, could offer nothing more than "you're wrong cuz I say so".

And even when there aren't that many Asian artists (but you'd still need to ask yourself if the current AOTY make-up could really represent the population, when before Bruno, the only other Asian who won was John Lennon's wife, who won it with him and would never have won anything on her own, and Bruno himself is less than half-Asian. Are there really so few Asians there can't even be 1 full Asian win?), there are undoubtedly a huge amount of Latin/Hispanic artists, including the very prominent (some legendary) Jennifer Lopez, Pitbull, Camilla Cabello, Selena Gomez, Selena, Gloria Estefan, Shakira, Enrique Inglesia, Marc Anthony, Ricky Martin, Prince Royce, Jenni Rivera, Juan Gabriels, Becky G, Thalia, J Balvin etc especially considering the fact that there is a huge number of Latinos/Hispanics living in the US, which as a country, controls the Latino territory of Puerto Rico, US Virgin Islands, even a part of Cuba, as well as the former Spanish territory of Florida and the Mexican territories of Texas, California, New Mexico, Arizona, among other regions.
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Postby DnBLover » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:29 am

Wtf? Isn't English an Anglo-Saxonic language? Obviously I wasn't talking about blood. Seriously, I don't have time for this shit.

Regarding the rest, I'm not even bothering.
Grammys are shit anyway.
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Postby clh_hilary » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:05 pm

DnBLover wrote:Wtf? Isn't English an Anglo-Saxonic language? Obviously I wasn't talking about blood. Seriously, I don't have time for this shit.

Regarding the rest, I'm not even bothering.
Grammys are shit anyway.
It's about the culture, as well as blood. American culture isn't Anglo-Saxon.

Ever if you're talking about the language itself, you can say English is a Germanic language, but no-one would say it's really Anglo-Saxon any more. The Norman invasion itself changed the language drastically, then Shakespeare added tonnes of words into the language, and over several more centuries the language is mixed with so many others, as well as made "posh" (eg dropping the "r" sound), it's definitely not the same any more.

There are very few words shared between German and English, but there are a lot more shared with Romance languages such as French and Spanish. And in the United States, the English has once again evolved, and due to the sheer number of HIspanic people, there are also a lot more Spanish words, as well as people using more French words.
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