Are black artists OVERrepresented at the Grammys?

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Postby GetBack » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:48 pm

clh_hilary wrote:There have been lots of people claiming that Grammy is institutionally racist, despite people like Beyonce and Kanye West and Michael Jackson and Quincy Jones and Stewie Wonder being some of the biggest winners (even Obama has a Grammy).

They often point to the supposedly lack of black winners in the most prestigious Album of the Year category, without actually taking into account of facts.

Is racism only possible against black acts? With 13 black winners, black people are actually OVERrepresented in Album of the Year:

There have been 60 Albums of the Year. 1 was a compilation so for all intents and purposes shouldn't even be counted here, but still, 13 black winners is 21.67%. How many black people are there in the US? Not even 13%!

There's close to 6% Asians. 1.5 winners = 2.5%.

More than 17% of the USA are Latino. 3 winners = 5%.

Who's actually the underrepresented group?
For some reason, they live by acknowledgement and validation. :oops: :oops: When things don't go towards their favor, it's already a crime and that they are judged and discriminated upon which is why they make a big deal out of losing. When they win, they act like it was already supposed to be given to them way back and that the acknowledgement of their 'greatness' came late. :roll: :roll:

They have the same statements against the Grammys every year but they are the first ones to anticipate the announcement of nominations and they are always in complete attendance at the Grammys every single time. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Postby clh_hilary » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:52 pm

bm08 wrote:What is a similar breakdown, by race, of Grammy voters?

I think that would add greater context to this discussion, which frankly, shouldn't be based on numbers alone.
Unless there are proportionally more black voters, it doesn't make black acts underrepresented.
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Postby clh_hilary » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:53 pm

cheapthrills wrote:Call me when a rap album actually manages to win a major award.
Rap albums don't appeal to the masses just like real country albums don't. To win a general field award, you need fans of different genres voting for you.
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Postby NothingFails » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:55 pm

clh_hilary wrote:
cheapthrills wrote:Call me when a rap album actually manages to win a major award.
Rap albums don't appeal to the masses just like real country albums don't. To win a general field award, you need fans of different genres voting for you.
They don't appeal to the masses? Hip hop dominates the charts right now.
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Postby clh_hilary » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:57 pm

TIfan wrote:Newsflash, Blacks invented country music. But we saw what happened when a Black woman performed at the CMA awards.
So since the Greeks invented theatre, should Greeks be winning most of the Academy Awards every year?

The Chinese and Arabs might have invented poems, so are they the only ethnic groups who should be winning Nobel Literature Prizes?

Since Anglo-Saxon people invented English, does it mean at least anyone not white are not allowed to win an English literature award?

Who invented what is irrelevant if they don't end up being the majority of producers.

I'm not saying white people aren't racist, I'm just stating the obvious fact that black acts are not underrepresented in AOTY at the Grammys.
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Postby clh_hilary » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:59 pm

TIfan wrote:How can blacks be overrepresented when it's the music they created. Blacks simply were saying, can they win for something that is created by them. That is no different than Asians upset over Scarlett Johansson or Matt Damon playing Asian heroes. The thing is Blacks will fight for and others will sit quietly and point fingers. But then tell blacks to be quiet because they are not equally being represented as the blacks, when they finally get rewarded.
So Greeks can't possibly be overrepresented at the Oscars? The Chinese and Arabs can't possibly be overrepresented in awards for poems?

Also, this is not about whether I think black people should be overrepresented, but the fact that people who go about this "underrepresented" business shouldn't criticize Bruno Mars's win, when he belongs to actual and very underrepresented groups.
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Postby cheapthrills » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:00 pm

clh_hilary wrote:
cheapthrills wrote:Call me when a rap album actually manages to win a major award.
Rap albums don't appeal to the masses just like real country albums don't. To win a general field award, you need fans of different genres voting for you.
Last decade Taylor, Dixie Chicks, and Lady Antebellum all say hi.
Last edited by cheapthrills on Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby clh_hilary » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:00 pm

Hugo wrote:I'm all for discussing things, but the motive of this thread's creator is disgusting.
Wow, very strong arguments there. You know you have no arguments so you are just trying to somehow hold onto the moral highground by simply denouncing the character of the person who delivers you facts.
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Postby clh_hilary » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:01 pm

NothingFails wrote:They don't appeal to the masses? Hip hop dominates the charts right now.
Which was why two hip-hop albums were nominated for AOTY.

Hip-hop absolutely dominated in the mid 2000s and the Grammys at that time reflected that.
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Postby clh_hilary » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:06 pm

cheapthrills wrote:Last decade Taylor, Dixie Chicks, and Lady Antelbellum all say hi.
Is that your argument? Swift with her pop hits, Dixie Chicks who was clearly a political award, and the poppy Lady A?

And this means anything how? How about Herbie Hancock? Outkast? Ray Charles? Alicia Keys? John Legend? Beyoncé? Luther Vandross?

All black acts who won a general field award last decade.
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Postby clh_hilary » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:08 pm

NothingFails wrote:I think its truly safe to say that Marvin, Prince, Sam Cooke, Aretha, Sly, Jimi, Beyonce, Kendrick and Kanye had/have more mass appeal than Norah who just happened to have the album every dinner party person needed to have that year. Those artists definitely have mass appeal and tons of classics to their names.
Oh, who among those people sold 22 million copies of an album like Norah Jones had when she was a Grammy darling?

Or are you going to say sales don't point to mass appeal?
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Postby biscuits » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:08 pm

All I know is there are never any news stories or people freaking out over the complete lack of Asian and Latino winners.
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Postby clh_hilary » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:09 pm

bluecherry wrote:Black artists almost never win the major categories. Black artists are creating the most innovative and political modern (and past) music.

They may be statistically overrepresented (the inclusion of R&B, UC, HH, Rap/Sung etc) but artistically it might even be the other way around.
So indeed you are saying Asians and Latinos simply aren't capable of producing good music.

And never? Herbie Hancock? Outkast? Ray Charles? Alicia Keys? John Legend? Beyoncé? Luther Vandross? All won in the last decade.
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Postby Nippian93 » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:10 pm

Interested in seeing how this thread goes.
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Postby clh_hilary » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:12 pm

heppolo wrote:I'd like to see a Native American to win a major category (currently there are notable names like Sky Ferreira, Kid Cudi and Angel Haze out there in the biz)
If even dark-skinned part-Asian/Pacific Islander, Jewish, Latino/Native American, second-generation immigrant, Hawaiian-born consistent hitmaker and touring force Bruno Mars attracted criticism for winning over black artists, I highly doubt said Native American artist would not attract a similar level of criticism.
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Postby biscuits » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:14 pm

heppolo wrote:I'd like to see a Native American to win a major category
For what reason? Because they’re Native American or because they’ve made a quality album?
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Postby clh_hilary » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:14 pm

GetBack wrote:For some reason, they live by acknowledgement and validation. :oops: :oops: When things don't go towards their favor, it's already a crime and that they are judged and discriminated upon which is why they make a big deal out of losing. When they win, they act like it was already supposed to be given to them way back and that the acknowledgement of their 'greatness' came late. :roll: :roll:

They have the same statements against the Grammys every year but they are the first ones to anticipate the announcement of nominations and they are always in complete attendance at the Grammys every single time. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
You know I was once called a racist simply because I didn't respond to a black person's messages on Grindr!

I have slept with many black people, I simply found him to be too old for me.
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Postby NothingFails » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:15 pm

Look, you perhaps do have a valid argument, it was the title of the thread that makes it sound racist and ill-advised.

The reality is that, as a white guy who gravitates more to the rock/indie/alt side of things, right now a lot of the most critically acclaimed and relevant music out there is coming from African American artists. I mean, I actually do like Beck (to me, Colors is far better than Morning Phase though) and was glad to see him get some belated due from the industry, but in the last four years, a black artist (Beyonce twice and Kendrick twice) ended up with the most critically acclaimed albums of their years over the albums that won over them. Especially in this streaming era where a generation views albums as irrelevant, those two are still making albums that matter and they end up losing to Adele, Bruno and Taylor albums that are essentially collections of singles and not albums that flow together as a cohesive statement the way To Pimp A Butterfly, DAMN and Lemonade all did. Well, Kendrick in all pretentiousness released a "special edition" of DAMN which literally was just the album in reverse order, because even though we're in a streaming generation, Kendrick's albums beg to be listened to as a whole, and he saw the album beginning with "DUCKWORTH" (the final cut of the original) and ending with the gunshots at the end of "BLOOD" (the track the opens the standard edition) flows and tells a different story. These artists are the ones who care about ALBUMS and are still making events out of the format, which IMO deserves more love than a Taylor album which is nothing but a collection of ready-packaged hit singles for the masses.
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Postby heppolo » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:16 pm

biscuits wrote:
heppolo wrote:I'd like to see a Native American to win a major category
For what reason? Because they’re Native American or because they’ve made a quality album?
Specifically for Native American music which is underrepresented in the mainstream.
Tuvan throat singers winning AOTY would also be so fine. And their music is pure ethereal, otherwordly quality.
As always, I am against anything mainstream. The more unknown the better.
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Postby clh_hilary » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:18 pm

biscuits wrote:All I know is there are never any news stories or people freaking out over the complete lack of Asian and Latino winners.
And that is a reason why I'm quite annoyed by this. Identity politics is bad per se, but they don't even realize the fact that music is actually one of those fields where they are not underrepresented. And when they were accurately presented the receipts such as Rihanna with her gazillion songs on the chart every week, they go into award shows where they are still not underrepresented.

It'd be like if gay people complain about underrepresentation in the hair-styling or fashion-designing business, or if oriental people complain about underrepresentation in higher education.

And then when Bruno Mars, the only part-Asian who is even doing anything on the charts is rewarded, they still complain their supposed lack of representation.
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Postby clh_hilary » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:19 pm

heppolo wrote:Specifically for Native American music which is underrepresented in the mainstream.
Tuvan throat singers winning AOTY would also be so fine. And their music is pure ethereal, otherwordly quality.
As always, I am against anything mainstream. The more unknown the better.
The Grammys aren't the Oscars. The awards mostly confirm, rather than confer, status.
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Postby cheapthrills » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:21 pm

clh_hilary wrote:
cheapthrills wrote:Last decade Taylor, Dixie Chicks, and Lady Antelbellum all say hi.
Is that your argument? Swift with her pop hits, Dixie Chicks who was clearly a political award, and the poppy Lady A?

And this means anything how? How about Herbie Hancock? Outkast? Ray Charles? Alicia Keys? John Legend? Beyoncé? Luther Vandross?

All black acts who won a general field award last decade.
I was responding to your argument about country music being too specified to garner general support. Those all have won since Outkast won an album award. But you are not addressing my point. With the possible exception of Outkast (who had more of a rap-sing combination), none of the black artists you cite are rap artists - a genre that has had mainstream support in the form of dollars and listeners for about four decades now.
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Postby clh_hilary » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:24 pm

NothingFails wrote:Look, you perhaps do have a valid argument, it was the title of the thread that makes it sound racist and ill-advised.

The reality is that, as a white guy who gravitates more to the rock/indie/alt side of things, right now a lot of the most critically acclaimed and relevant music out there is coming from African American artists. I mean, I actually do like Beck (to me, Colors is far better than Morning Phase though) and was glad to see him get some belated due from the industry, but in the last four years, a black artist (Beyonce twice and Kendrick twice) ended up with the most critically acclaimed albums of their years over the albums that won over them. Especially in this streaming era where a generation views albums as irrelevant, those two are still making albums that matter and they end up losing to Adele, Bruno and Taylor albums that are essentially collections of singles and not albums that flow together as a cohesive statement the way To Pimp A Butterfly, DAMN and Lemonade all did. Well, Kendrick in all pretentiousness released a "special edition" of DAMN which literally was just the album in reverse order, because even though we're in a streaming generation, Kendrick's albums beg to be listened to as a whole, and he saw the album beginning with "DUCKWORTH" (the final cut of the original) and ending with the gunshots at the end of "BLOOD" (the track the opens the standard edition) flows and tells a different story. These artists are the ones who care about ALBUMS and are still making events out of the format, which IMO deserves more love than a Taylor album which is nothing but a collection of ready-packaged hit singles for the masses.
It's not racist to point out an obvious, objective fact, and I certainly would prefer anyone winning anything (with the exception of a Golden Rasberry or something) over Taylor Swift, but it's not about that. It's about the African-American community seemingly unwilling to make their fight against racism intersectional and actually attacking a guy who comes from extremely underrepresented backgrounds for winning over their favourites.

And the title was intentional. Titles are meant to attract attention.
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Postby clh_hilary » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:27 pm

cheapthrills wrote:I was responding to your argument about country music being too specified to garner general support. Those all have won since Outkast won an album award. But you are not addressing my point. With the possible exception of Outkast (who had more of a rap-sing combination), none of the black artists you cite are rap artists - a genre that has had mainstream support in the form of dollars and listeners for about four decades now.
If race is actually the issue, Eminem would've won AOTY already.

Taylor Swift was already clearly pop with Fearless, and the Dixie Chicks only won anything because of political reasons - they failed to win when they were selling millions. So at most you can only say Lady A, who was not only poppy, but with one of their lead vocalists being a failed pop singer.
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Postby heppolo » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:29 pm

clh_hilary wrote:
heppolo wrote:Specifically for Native American music which is underrepresented in the mainstream.
Tuvan throat singers winning AOTY would also be so fine. And their music is pure ethereal, otherwordly quality.
As always, I am against anything mainstream. The more unknown the better.
The Grammys aren't the Oscars. The awards mostly confirm, rather than confer, status.
Oscars are also mellow and mainstream, no Cape Verde movies regularly winning so far.
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