Madonna

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Postby MrLeonix » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:26 am

menime123 wrote:
MrLeonix wrote:^ I know she's had a lot of input in many songs, but its not all the time, Madonna has also been known to be a terrible songwriter in other occassions by taking credit for changing one or two words for other songs.
Name them.
"Justify my love" was one of them:

"Justify My Love" was originally written and recorded by Ingrid Chavez, Prince's protégé and friend, and Lenny Kravitz: he and producer André Betts composed the music while Chavez penned the lyrics based on a poem she had written for Kravitz, and read them aloud. Kravitz added the title hook and chorus to the demo while Madonna corrected one line.
These details went out public after Ingrid sued Kravitz and the case was taken into a court because he refused to give her a writing credit, thats how it was revealed how the song was written, otherwise Madonna's input in the song would have never come out public and we would have believed she actually sit down there and co-wrote. She barely did anything. Lyrics were done entirely by Ingrid, Kravitz and Andre composed the music / melodies. Madonna just corrected one line.

Also songwriters for "You must love me" didn't allow her to gain credit because she wanted to change one line on the song to get the credit after the song had already been entirely composed, they forbid it and it was easy for them since she had not much control on the "Evita" project as it was a soundtrack.

"Nothing fails" co-writer wasn't much optimistic when asked if Madonna had enough participation on the writing. And there are plenty of her songs with these stories.

Also there are entire albums she didn't have as much musical input as most fans believe, for example for "Ray of light" her contribution was just lyrical (which is great BTW) but she didn't have any input in the music, melodies, and sound for most of the ROL album, all the music, instrumentals, production and melodies were done and ready before she even started recording, William Orbit sent her a tape with 13 tracks with instrumentals and music ready she didn't have to do anything musically-wise, she would just fit lyrics over the music and brilliant sound that was already created and composed for her.

I love her, but her songwriting skills is the only thing in her career that I think is a bit overrated.
Last edited by MrLeonix on Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby madgikman » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:49 am

MrLeonix wrote:
menime123 wrote:I’m waiting for the Kanye stuff to actually happen though - he was supposed to co-exec produce RH wasn’t he? I think he could introduce her to a lot of new people who don’t work in pop music, but still have something to offer her.
He co-wrote and co-produced "Illuminati", "S.E.X" and "Autotune baby" for "Rebel Heart" and I wasn't impressed with those songs to be honest.
Didn't he also work on Wash All Over Me too?
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Postby Westen » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:57 am

Load of crap.

It was Kravitz who was sued because it was him who screwed other person over credits, not Madonna. Madonna never claimed it as one of the songs that SHE wrote. Same for Nothing fails which was already known and recorded demo called Silly Thing.
She changed it from soft folk song to electronic acoustic ballad, while changing lyrics too. That's more than enough for credits. MJ also had demos sent to him and got writing credits for doing same things.

Songwriting is not writing lyrics from first word to the last one, it's process of creating a song and final product is what matters and the fact is that she always has final word. You're now reaching in order to discredit her for whatever reason, which is funny because you have totally different perspective when it comes to your fave Britney.

That ROL story that you have written is not related to the topic or relevant.

Andrew and Tim thanked Madonna when they accepted Oscar, if she bitched about lyrics and wanted to change something it was because she always does that, but she made a mistake because ALW is not one of those guys who lets you edit his work.
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Postby QueenMadonna » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:03 am

Westen wrote: You're now reaching in order to discredit her for whatever reason, which is funny because you have totally different perspective when it comes to your fave Britney.
Absolutely :lol:
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Postby MrLeonix » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:05 am

Westen wrote:Load of crap.

It was Kravitz who was sued because it was him who screwed other person over credits, not Madonna. Madonna never claimed it as one of the songs that SHE wrote. Same for Nothing fails which was already known and recorded demo called Silly Thing.
She changed it from soft folk song to electronic acoustic ballad, while changing lyrics too. That's more than enough for credits. MJ also had demos sent to him and got writing credits for doing same things.

Songwriting is not writing lyrics from first word to the last one, it's process of creating a song and final product is what matters and the fact is that she always has final word. You're now reaching in order to discredit her for whatever reason, which is funny because you have totally different perspective when it comes to your fave Britney.

That ROL story that you have written is not related to the topic or relevant.

Andrew and Tim thanked Madonna when they accepted Oscar, if she bitched about lyrics and wanted to change something it was because she always does that, but she made a mistake because ALW is not one of those guys who lets you edit his work.
Yep, Kravitz was sued, and after that lawsuit the info leaked, Madonna who had a writing credit had just changed one line. Not saying its wrong, its just that she is not that genius songwriter all the time as her fans believe.

Honestly, Most other fanbases are not as obssesed with writing credits as Madonna and Mariah Carey fans are. I do give her credit for being creative and knowing what she wants, but Madonna is a more of genius Popstar rather than a genius songwriter.
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Postby melodious » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:20 am

MrLeonix wrote:Also there are entire albums she didn't have as much musical input as most fans believe, for example for "Ray of light" her contribution was just lyrical (which is great BTW) but she didn't have any input in the music, melodies, and sound for most of the ROL album, all the music, instrumentals, production and melodies were done and ready before she even started recording, William Orbit sent her a tape with 13 tracks with instrumentals and music ready she didn't have to do anything musically-wise, she would just fit lyrics over the music and brilliant sound that was already created and composed for her.

I love her, but her songwriting skills is the only thing in her career that I think its a bit overrated.
What a crap.
More than half of the songs on Ray of Light were almost done before William Orbit came into the recording session.
William Orbit was only credited as a writer on 6 out of 13 tracks on Ray of Light.
Nice try!

MrLeonix wrote:Yep, Kravitz was sued, and after that lawsuit the info leaked, Madonna who had a writing credit had just changed one line. Not saying its wrong, its just that she is not that genius songwriter all the time as her fans believe.
Justify My Love credit on the liner note was "written by Lenny Kravitz with additional lyrics by Madonna"
She didn't even claim she wrote half of the song.
Nice try, again!

MrLeonix wrote:Honestly, Most other fanbases are not as obssesed with writing credits as Madonna and Mariah Carey fans are. I do give her credit for being creative and knowing what she wants, but Madonna is a more of genius Popstar rather than a genius songwriter.
Yeah, because your fave has never been a songwriter. :wink:
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Postby MrLeonix » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:28 am

melodious wrote:What a crap.
More than half of the songs on Ray of Light are almost done before William Orbit came into the recording session.
William Orbit was only credited as a writer on 6 out of 13 tracks on Ray of Light.
Nice try!
Well, for none of the Orbit tracks she had musical input (only lyrical), I appreciate the lyrical input, but the hard work of a composer is actually in the music composition and melodies.

But its ok. I know no one will ever accept that fact here.

Oh d*mn, how much I miss my good friend "Madgefan", he was the greatest and most objective Madonna fan I ever met.
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Postby melodious » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:52 am

MrLeonix wrote:
melodious wrote:What a crap.
More than half of the songs on Ray of Light are almost done before William Orbit came into the recording session.
William Orbit was only credited as a writer on 6 out of 13 tracks on Ray of Light.
Nice try!
Well, for none of the Orbit tracks she had musical input (only lyrical), I appreciate the lyrical input, but the hard work of a composer is actually in the music composition and melodies.
How do you know? You obviously don't understand the difference between "instrumental" and "melody". William Orbit composed/produced instrumentals, which couldn't be sung yet. Not only did Madonna write all the lyrics but she also composed the singing melodies to those instrumentals.

By the way, Tim Rice is also on the Songwriters Hall of Fame. And he's purely a lyricist in his entire career.

Saying a false statement (pretending it as a fact) doesn't make you an "objective" fan.
Objectivity sticks to the truth.
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Postby MrLeonix » Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:02 am

melodious wrote:How do you know? You obviously don't understand the difference between "instrumental" and "melody". William Orbit composed/produced instrumentals, which couldn't be sung yet. Not only did Madonna write all the lyrics but she also composed the singing melodies to those instrumentals.

By the way, Tim Rice is also on the Songwriters Hall of Fame. And he's purely a lyricist in his entire career.

Saying a false statement (pretending it as a fact) doesn't make you an "objective" fan.
Objectivity sticks to the truth. :wink:
I read the story about the entire making of "Ray of light", it was a super interesting long article (really long) I really liked it, and nope, she didn't create most melodies according to what I read, it was mostly a lyrical job for her, she did some melodies here and there but it wasn't like that for the majority of songs, after reading that article it was clear to me that Orbit was the master mind behind ROL's brilliant sound which I love. And I don't say this with hate or anything, I remember I wasn't happy when I read all of that because I always believed Madonna was somehow behind that brilliant sound and it was quite hard for me when I found out it wasn't like that.

Look its ok, not looking to argue with you or anything. :wink:
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Postby melodious » Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:05 am

MrLeonix wrote:I read the story about the entire making of "Ray of light", it was a super interesting long article (really long) I really liked it, and nope, she didn't create most melodies according to what I read, it was mostly a lyrical job for her, she did some melodies here and there but it wasn't like that for the majority of songs, after reading that article it was clear to me that Orbit was the master mind behind ROL's brilliant sound which I love. And I don't say this with hate or anything, I remember I wasn't happy when I read all of that because I always believed Madonna was somehow behind that brilliant sound and it was quite hard for me when I found out it wasn't like that.

Look its ok, not looking to argue with you or anything. :wink:
Enlighten me with the article, please.
Your statements regarding her writing ability were mostly false on the previous page.
Oh right, just ignore it... you don't have time to argue with me. :wink:
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Postby MrLeonix » Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:14 am

melodious wrote:Enlighten me with the article, please.
Your statements regarding her writing ability were mostly false on the previous page.
Oh right, just ignore it... you don't have time to argue with me. :wink:
Look it up for yourself. The information is out there.
They were not fake. What I posted was truth or at least its what I've read.
Nah not into arguing right now.
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Postby melodious » Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:43 am

MrLeonix wrote:
melodious wrote:Enlighten me with the article, please.
Your statements regarding her writing ability were mostly false on the previous page.
Oh right, just ignore it... you don't have time to argue with me. :wink:
Look it up for yourself. The information is out there.
They were not fake. What I posted was truth or at least its what I've read.
Nah not into arguing right now.
You don't even dare to post a link. :roll:
All your previous false claims have been denied by other users.
Fine, don't reply me.
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Postby MrLeonix » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:01 am

^ What other users? The only one who is posting like crazy is you :lol:
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Postby QueenMadonna » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:07 am

If Madonna has not been a good songwriter why was she nominated for "songwriters hall of the fame" in 2017?
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Postby QueenMadonna » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:17 am

MrLeonix wrote:^ What other users? The only one who is posting like crazy is you :lol:
Come back here when Ms. Spears to get a number one on UK album chart 8-)
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Postby MrLeonix » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:26 am

QueenMadonna wrote:
MrLeonix wrote:^ What other users? The only one who is posting like crazy is you :lol:
Come back here when Ms. Spears to get a number one on UK album chart 8-)
You chill and don't laugh that much that I already sent Wayne a PM yesterday telling him that you are "Materini" .. :)
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Postby melodious » Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:52 am

MrLeonix wrote:^ What other users? The only one who is posting like crazy is you :lol:
Can you read this? :lol: :lol:

Westen wrote:Load of crap.

It was Kravitz who was sued because it was him who screwed other person over credits, not Madonna. Madonna never claimed it as one of the songs that SHE wrote. Same for Nothing fails which was already known and recorded demo called Silly Thing.
She changed it from soft folk song to electronic acoustic ballad, while changing lyrics too. That's more than enough for credits. MJ also had demos sent to him and got writing credits for doing same things.

Songwriting is not writing lyrics from first word to the last one, it's process of creating a song and final product is what matters and the fact is that she always has final word. You're now reaching in order to discredit her for whatever reason, which is funny because you have totally different perspective when it comes to your fave Britney.

That ROL story that you have written is not related to the topic or relevant.

Andrew and Tim thanked Madonna when they accepted Oscar, if she bitched about lyrics and wanted to change something it was because she always does that, but she made a mistake because ALW is not one of those guys who lets you edit his work.
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Postby menime123 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:44 am

I am not precious about Madonna’s song writing credits. Some of her biggest hits - Like a Virgin, Holiday, Material Girl, Papa Don’t Preach - were written by other people and that takes no enjoyment away from the actual songs. They are Madonna songs. They belong to her.

What I find frustrating as a Madonna fan, is when people overlook her ability and skills as a songwriter and dismiss it like it’s absolutely fine. Well actually, it’s not okay at all. In this industry songwriting has always made you more creditable. Songwriting proves your ability as a musician. Songwriting means you have something to say.

Male popstars - the legends - such as Elton John, Paul McCartney, George Michael and newer people like Ed Sheeran - get respect because they’re known as singer songwriters and are praised because they make ‘real’ music.

Well actually, no, it’s because they’re a man and don’t express themselves in other ways. Madonna - and Mariah - do not get credit for their skills at creating songs because they’re women. People believe they are the creation of the men behind them and this is true of a woman who dares step away from an instrument and provides routines, theatrics and visual presentations of their work.

Madonna writes her own songs and gets no credit. Mariah creates the biggest ‘classic’ Christmas song and people don’t know she wrote it because they automatically assume otherwise. The Spice Girls write all of their own songs, sell 75 million records and are supposedly the epitome of a manufactured band who are told what to do, what to say, what to weer and what to sing.

Basically, there is a level of sexism attached to women because people don’t automatically assume they write their own material. Look at Adele - the world knows she does and is praised beyond belief that a woman could write such brilliance.
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Postby MrLeonix » Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:30 am

^ Hey, nice post. I like your point of view. Maybe I was a bit hard on her, I just couldn't stand the exaggerated overpraising, but you seem to have a really coherent and objective point.
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Postby QueenMadonna » Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:42 am

Top 10 biggest audience of Madonna's single shows in world tours (from 2001 to 2016)

Rank - City - Country - Attendance - Tour - Year

1. Helsinki - Finland - 85,354 - Sticky and Sweet Tour - 2009
2. Horses - Denmark - 85,332 - Confessions Tour - 2006
3. Warsaw - Poland - 79,343 - Sticky and Sweet Tour - 2009
4. Athens - Greece - 75,637 - Sticky and Sweet Tour - 2008
5. Lisbon - Portugal - 75,000 - Sticky and Sweet Tour - 2008
6. London - England - 73,349 - Sticky and Sweet Tour - 2008
7. Tallinn - Estonia - 72,067 - Sticky and Sweet Tour - 2009
8. Quebec - Canada - 70,569 - MDNA Tour - 2012
9. Zurich - Switzerland - 70,314 - Sticky and Sweet Tour - 2008
10. Bucharest - Romania - 69,088 - Sticky and Sweet Tour - 2009

Source: Billboard Boxscore
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Postby melodious » Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:46 am

So, MrLeo, have you check the credits on Ray of Light CD already? Did William Orbit wrote most of the songs? :D

By the way, this is what Rick Nowels said about Madonna.
AlphaMale wrote:Rick Nowels on Madonna: “Madonna and I wrote nine songs together over a two week period in late April 1997. Madonna would show up at 3 p.m. and we would start from scratch. She would leave at 7:00 and we would have a finished song and demo with all her lead and background vocals recorded.”
She is a brilliant pop melodist and lyricist,” Nowels continued. “I was knocked out by the quality of the writing. The lyrics to ‘The Power Of Good-Bye’ are stunning. I love Madonna as an artist and a songwriter… I know she grew up on Joni Mitchell and Motown, and to my ears she embodies the best of both worlds. She is a wonderful confessional songwriter, as well as being a superb hit chorus pop writer… She doesn’t get the credit she deserves as a writer.”
So, saying William Orbit composes the entire ROL album and Madonna didn't have ANY input musically is just completely bull****!

The Power of Goodbye // writing credit: Madonna & Rick Nowels // production credit: Madonna, Patrick Leonard, William Orbit.
Last edited by melodious on Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby MrLeonix » Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:48 am

melodious wrote:So, MrLeo, have you check the credits on Ray of Light CD already? Did William Orbit wrote most of the songs? :D

So, saying William Orbit composes the entire ROL album and Madonna didn't have ANY input musically or melodically is just completely bul****t!

The Power of Goodbye writing credit: Madonna & Nowels, production credit: Madonna, Patrick Leonard, William Orbit.
Yes I have. What I said is that for the Orbit tracks she didn't have much musical input. I wasn't talking about the other Nowels tracks she did.
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Postby NoAngel » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:08 pm

To add to NF case. This is Jem's version and to say Madonna didn't add anything is some serious understatement.

https://youtu.be/zmpE0mv8P9w

About her songwriting abilities - She wasn't credited on some of her biggest hits and I'm sure she could get a credit if she wanted to. But to say that her input is limited to changing one or two lines is an insult to her. Many of her collaborators explaind writing and recording sessions with her in detal, so if someone's interested there's a bunch of such material on the internet.
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Postby melodious » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:00 pm

MrLeonix wrote:Yes I have. What I said is that for the Orbit tracks she didn't have much musical input. I wasn't talking about the other Nowels tracks she did.
MrLeonix wrote:Also there are entire albums she didn't have as much musical input as most fans believe, for example for "Ray of light" her contribution was just lyrical (which is great BTW) but she didn't have any input in the music, melodies, and sound for most of the ROL album, all the music, instrumentals, production and melodies were done and ready before she even started recording, William Orbit sent her a tape with 13 tracks with instrumentals and music ready she didn't have to do anything musically-wise, she would just fit lyrics over the music and brilliant sound that was already created and composed for her.
This is one of the original 13 tracks William Orbit created and sent to Madonna. It's very very far from the finished "Candy Perfume Girl" on the CD. In fact it is a very basic instrumental, without melodies to be sung. How could Madonna write ONLY lyrics to this kind of instrumental?



Next one, this is the demo for "Drowned World".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qwyjqtz6EJs

Does it have the same melodies as we hear on the album version? Sounds very much finished, doesn't it?
William was like: Okay Madonna, this song is done, put your lyrics and sing it!

So, no no, Madonna contributed a lot to Ray of Light, melodically and lyrically.
Williams hugely contributed to the album's "sounds"... oh sorry, it's indeed his sound, not Madonna's.
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Postby CandyShop » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:37 pm

Such a criticism from a Britney fan: what an insult :o :roll:
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