Catalonia | Puigdemont to be arrested in Belgium

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Postby Serby » Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:30 am

I'm high but that was kinda deep lol I like it.
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Postby Hugo » Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:08 am

MP belga ordena detenção de Carles Puigdemont

Justiça belga deve deter Puigdemont e ex-4 ministros nas próximas horas

O Ministério Público belga ordenou a detenção do presidente destituído da Catalunha, Carles Puigdemont, e dos seus quatro ex-conselheiros regionais

https://www.dn.pt/mundo/interior/justic ... 95442.html
In Portuguese, but the Public Ministry of Belgium demanded his arrest.
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Postby Wayne » Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:13 am

Oh dear, of all the countries to flee to - Belgium shouldn't have been that country.
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Postby android » Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:28 pm

Bojan wrote:The facts is that only Serbs were victims of oppression and ethnic cleansing in Yugoslavia.
^^^ Mmmm Nah. All side were involved.

As for Puigdemont's being arrested I am concerned . He will be a political prisoner in jail maybe for 30 years and for what? for being elected in an autonomous Catalonia government allowed by Spain. I don't agree with a break up of Spain but this is a threat to democratic principles, freedom of speech and expression.
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Postby grooveboy » Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:12 pm

Bojan wrote:

The facts is that only Serbs were victims of oppression and ethnic cleansing in Yugoslavia.
This is rather a load of BS than facts, but I'm gonna stop right here 'cos this is not the topic of this thread
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Postby jio » Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:38 pm

android wrote:
Bojan wrote:The facts is that only Serbs were victims of oppression and ethnic cleansing in Yugoslavia.
^^^ Mmmm Nah. All side were involved.

As for Puigdemont's being arrested I am concerned . He will be a political prisoner in jail maybe for 30 years and for what? for being elected in an autonomous Catalonia government allowed by Spain. I don't agree with a break up of Spain but this is a threat to democratic principles, freedom of speech and expression.
I don't know how I feel about him being arrested and imprisoned for years either. But I agree with him being charged and facing trial. Maybe he could be convicted and then pardoned? I guess that's the safest way to go with this.
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Postby MusicRecords » Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:59 pm

This has really turned from bad to worse
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Postby heppolo » Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:46 pm

MusicRecords wrote:This has really turned from bad to worse
and this is only the beginning.
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Postby imlookedat81 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:12 pm

android wrote:As for Puigdemont's being arrested I am concerned . He will be a political prisoner in jail maybe for 30 years and for what? for being elected in an autonomous Catalonia government allowed by Spain. I don't agree with a break up of Spain but this is a threat to democratic principles, freedom of speech and expression.
No, Spain is not threat to any of those principles. He won't be arrested for being elected but for continuously braking the law. Puigdemont was advised many times by Spanish Government that what he was doing was against Spanish law and Constitution. The Spanish Supreme Court suspended the law approved in the Catalonian parliament about the illegal referendum and also suspended the session where they proclaimed independence, still he and his government did it. Now they are charged with rebellion, secession and embezzlement. So no, they are not charged for their ideas.
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Postby Bojan » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:43 pm

imlookedat81 wrote:
android wrote:As for Puigdemont's being arrested I am concerned . He will be a political prisoner in jail maybe for 30 years and for what? for being elected in an autonomous Catalonia government allowed by Spain. I don't agree with a break up of Spain but this is a threat to democratic principles, freedom of speech and expression.
No, Spain is not threat to any of those principles. He won't be arrested for being elected but for continuously braking the law. Puigdemont was advised many times by Spanish Government that what he was doing was against Spanish law and Constitution. The Spanish Supreme Court suspended the law approved in the Catalonian parliament about the illegal referendum and also suspended the session where they proclaimed independence, still he and his government did it. Now they are charged with rebellion, secession and embezzlement. So no, they are not charged for their ideas.
But your country (Sweden) is supporting separatists who are breaking laws (Palestine, Taiwan, Kosovo...), why is Spain an exception?
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Postby Bojan » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:44 pm

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Postby jio » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:50 pm

Bojan wrote:
imlookedat81 wrote:
android wrote:As for Puigdemont's being arrested I am concerned . He will be a political prisoner in jail maybe for 30 years and for what? for being elected in an autonomous Catalonia government allowed by Spain. I don't agree with a break up of Spain but this is a threat to democratic principles, freedom of speech and expression.
No, Spain is not threat to any of those principles. He won't be arrested for being elected but for continuously braking the law. Puigdemont was advised many times by Spanish Government that what he was doing was against Spanish law and Constitution. The Spanish Supreme Court suspended the law approved in the Catalonian parliament about the illegal referendum and also suspended the session where they proclaimed independence, still he and his government did it. Now they are charged with rebellion, secession and embezzlement. So no, they are not charged for their ideas.
But your country (Sweden) is supporting separatists who are breaking laws (Palestine, Taiwan, Kosovo...), why is Spain an exception?
It's very unfortunate you included Palestine up there...
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Postby Bojan » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:35 pm

Why?
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Postby Serby » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:23 am

Bojan wrote:https://helpcatalonia.eu

What Spanish police did was wrong on so many levels, but I cant help but feel like this video is bullshit. Also, 50% of all votes went put to vote, if that much, not really a big number if people there really want independence, plus thia ia really different from Scotland's case.
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Postby imlookedat81 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:14 am

Bojan wrote:But your country (Sweden) is supporting separatists who are breaking laws (Palestine, Taiwan, Kosovo...), why is Spain an exception?
We live in a global world with no boundaries, me leaving in Sweden doesn't make me a Swed :D I'm Spanish.
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Postby imlookedat81 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:42 am

That video is bullshit they just copied this one from Ukraine.



Any attempt to compare the situation in Catalonia to Ukraine or to Spain to a dictatorship is just pathetic. Why don't they speak about the more than 2000 companies that have left Catalonia in the last two months? Or that Catalonia is the Spanish region where unemployment has increased more in October? Or how hotels reservations have fallen by 50% in Barcelona? I really don't get how they can be doing so much harm to their own people when they are probably already the region with more autonomy and self-government in Europe.

With this attitude and not wanting to negotiate with Spanish government all they are doing is making those parties that are clearly against independence to grow in the polls. If there was a general election, PP and Cs would now get a clear majority and the only national party defending a referendum in Catalonia would lose more than 1.5M votes.
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Postby android » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:11 am

imlookedat81 wrote:
android wrote:As for Puigdemont's being arrested I am concerned . He will be a political prisoner in jail maybe for 30 years and for what? for being elected in an autonomous Catalonia government allowed by Spain. I don't agree with a break up of Spain but this is a threat to democratic principles, freedom of speech and expression.
No, Spain is not threat to any of those principles. He won't be arrested for being elected but for continuously braking the law. Puigdemont was advised many times by Spanish Government that what he was doing was against Spanish law and Constitution. The Spanish Supreme Court suspended the law approved in the Catalonian parliament about the illegal referendum and also suspended the session where they proclaimed independence, still he and his government did it. Now they are charged with rebellion, secession and embezzlement. So no, they are not charged for their ideas.
Yes it was an illegal act under Spanish law but proposing to jail people for their political beliefs for 30 years when they have committed no violence is wrong in my opinion. In Australia my state decided in 1933 to secede from Australia, no one was arrested the result was ignored after being told it was unconstitutional. Spain could have chose to do the same.
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Postby heppolo » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:38 am

^Puigdemont went a bit further though, declaring an independent state.
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Postby imlookedat81 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:11 am

android wrote:Yes it was an illegal act under Spanish law but proposing to jail people for their political beliefs for 30 years when they have committed no violence is wrong in my opinion. In Australia my state decided in 1933 to secede from Australia, no one was arrested the result was ignored after being told it was unconstitutional. Spain could have chose to do the same.
AGAIN, they are not prosecuted for their beliefs but for braking the law. There are other pro-independence parties with power in Spain (in Basque Country for instance) and they are not in jail. Puigdemont and his government declared independence (secession and rebellion felonies) and paid an illegal referendum with public money (embezzlement felony) that's why judges (no Spanish government) are prosecuting them.

They are trying to make it look as if they are prosecuted by their ideas (and reading some comments here it looks they are being successful) but no, the reason is they committed three big felonies.
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Postby android » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:41 pm

imlookedat81 wrote:
android wrote:Yes it was an illegal act under Spanish law but proposing to jail people for their political beliefs for 30 years when they have committed no violence is wrong in my opinion. In Australia my state decided in 1933 to secede from Australia, no one was arrested the result was ignored after being told it was unconstitutional. Spain could have chose to do the same.
AGAIN, they are not prosecuted for their beliefs but for braking the law. There are other pro-independence parties with power in Spain (in Basque Country for instance) and they are not in jail. Puigdemont and his government declared independence (secession and rebellion felonies) and paid an illegal referendum with public money (embezzlement felony) that's why judges (no Spanish government) are prosecuting them.

They are trying to make it look as if they are prosecuted by their ideas (and reading some comments here it looks they are being successful) but no, the reason is they committed three big felonies.
Some would say the Spanish Government and the Spanish judiciary are persecuting as well as prosecuting them especially if there not pardoned. Any extreme prison sentence will make them political prisoners in many peoples eyes. I will remind you of the results from a 2015 report from the European Network of Councils for the Judiciary, a group representing national judiciaries at the EU, show Spain ranks near bottom in judicial independence. The Spanish government’s violent crackdown shows a level of police brutality not often seen in developed democracies. It is over reach, authoritarian and could lead to a violent backlash. One needs de-escalation and engagement to have social cohesion and peaceful coexistence .
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Postby imlookedat81 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:50 pm

android wrote:Some would say the Spanish Government and the Spanish judiciary are persecuting as well as prosecuting them especially if there not pardoned. Any extreme prison sentence will make them political prisoners in many peoples eyes. I will remind you of the results from a 2015 report from the European Network of Councils for the Judiciary, a group representing national judiciaries at the EU, show Spain ranks near bottom in judicial independence. The Spanish government’s violent crackdown shows a level of police brutality not often seen in developed democracies. It is over reach, authoritarian and could lead to a violent backlash. One needs de-escalation and engagement to have social cohesion and peaceful coexistence .
So according to you they should be pardoned why? If politicians use public money (it is estimated the spent around 6M euros in the last two years on pro-independence activities), money that we all paid with our taxes to have good schools and hospitals they should be pardoned? What felonies should be pardoned then? All or only those committed by pro-independence parties?

That report is talking about perceived independence of courts and judges among the general public. The Democracy Index by country 2016 ranks Spain 17, right under UK and ahead of Italy, France, USA or Japan among others. I can in fact tell you that Spanish government was not happy when the judge sent some of the members of the former Catalonia government to prison because they knew they would play the victim again and that could benefit pro-independence parties in the elections on Dec 21.

Talking about public opinion, do you know mossos d'esquadra (Catalonia police) are known as the most aggressive ones in Spain? I already explained a few posts back why Spanish police intervened during Oct-1 (which in my opinion was a mistake, they should have left people vote, that was an illegal referendum and results had no validity at all). But here a few images of how mossos d'esquadra fought demonstrations during 15M movement in Barcelona, and do you know who sent them? Yes that's it, Puigdemont government:

Image

Image

Image
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Postby android » Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:53 am

They should be pardoned because their elected politicians and a democratic nation who chooses to jail its political foes is a nation on a slippery slope to authoritarianism. Politicians are elected to use public money and that money was authorised by the Parliament of Catalonia which in turn was elected by the people of Catalonia. I can't see that as corruption or done for self interest and personal gain. It might be against the Spanish constitution and deemed illegal by another jurisdiction but prison sentences will lead to greater anger, dissent and distrust. Catalonia’s sense of independence and separateness from the rest of Spain is, like that of the Basque Country, is nothing new. For 1000 years, Catalonia has had a distinct history. It has its own language, customs and culture. To punish its leaders is counterproductive and punitive. Spain would be far better to to stifle the independence movement through compromise and using persuasion of the merits of unity and embracing an autonomous but not independent Catalonia.
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Postby imlookedat81 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:12 am

android wrote:They should be pardoned because their elected politicians and a democratic nation who chooses to jail its political foes is a nation on a slippery slope to authoritarianism.
So politicians have carte blanche because they have been elected. It doesn't matter what they do, as long as they have been elected they can do and undo as they please and then be pardoned because they are politicians?

android wrote:Politicians are elected to use public money and that money was authorised by the Parliament of Catalonia which in turn was elected by the people of Catalonia. I can't see that as corruption or done for self interest and personal gain. It might be against the Spanish constitution and deemed illegal by another jurisdiction but prison sentences will lead to greater anger, dissent and distrust.
So you consider Spanish law in Catalonia as from another jurisdiction? Are you saying that Spanish law and Constitution shouldn't be applied in Catalonia? Is Catalonia already a different country?

android wrote:Catalonia’s sense of independence and separateness from the rest of Spain is, like that of the Basque Country, is nothing new. For 1000 years, Catalonia has had a distinct history. It has its own language, customs and culture. To punish its leaders is counterproductive and punitive. Spain would be far better to to stifle the independence movement through compromise and using persuasion of the merits of unity and embracing an autonomous but not independent Catalonia.
Yes Catalonia has had a distinct history, same as every other region in Spain, that's not new. That doesn't make the Basque Country, Galicia or Valencia to declare unilaterally independence braking their own law (the one you call from another jurisdiction).
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Postby android » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:07 am

imlookedat81 wrote:
android wrote:They should be pardoned because their elected politicians and a democratic nation who chooses to jail its political foes is a nation on a slippery slope to authoritarianism.
So politicians have carte blanche because they have been elected. It doesn't matter what they do, as long as they have been elected they can do and undo as they please and then be pardoned because they are politicians?

android wrote:Politicians are elected to use public money and that money was authorised by the Parliament of Catalonia which in turn was elected by the people of Catalonia. I can't see that as corruption or done for self interest and personal gain. It might be against the Spanish constitution and deemed illegal by another jurisdiction but prison sentences will lead to greater anger, dissent and distrust.
So you consider Spanish law in Catalonia as from another jurisdiction? Are you saying that Spanish law and Constitution shouldn't be applied in Catalonia? Is Catalonia already a different country?

android wrote:Catalonia’s sense of independence and separateness from the rest of Spain is, like that of the Basque Country, is nothing new. For 1000 years, Catalonia has had a distinct history. It has its own language, customs and culture. To punish its leaders is counterproductive and punitive. Spain would be far better to to stifle the independence movement through compromise and using persuasion of the merits of unity and embracing an autonomous but not independent Catalonia.
Yes Catalonia has had a distinct history, same as every other region in Spain, that's not new. That doesn't make the Basque Country, Galicia or Valencia to declare unilaterally independence braking their own law (the one you call from another jurisdiction).
"Carte blanche" are your words not mine. It matters what they do and I explained that. It is your choice to ignore that. I don't want Catalonia to be independent but I want peace, democracy and a recognition of Catalonia autonomy not hatred, fear, revenge and persecution on any side. The definition of a jurisdiction is the extent of the power to make legal decisions and judgements at various levels. I think Catalonia went too far but Spain could take heed from the likes of Nelson Mandela who said " If you want to make peace with your enemy, you have to work with your enemy. Then he becomes your partner". Don't let blind hatred stop sides from striving for a lasting peace.
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