Catalonia | Puigdemont to be arrested in Belgium

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Postby menime123 » Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:39 am

imlookedat81 wrote:That declaration has the same validity as if I do it, NONE. They were probably not happy with the 1700 companies that have left Catalonia already, they wanted to hurt their own people even more. But don’t worry Catalanes, the Spanish Government and the rest of Spain are there for you, all together we will restore democracy and legality in Catalonia.
I feel for the politicians. I really do. They had a referendum (illegally) but the people (apparently) want independence. The politicians can’t back down now and needed to see it through. They all knew what it would mean for their careers, but I still think they’re hoping to force Spain’s hand into a legal referendum.

It’s just madness. I mean we had Scotland voting legally in a referendum and that was hard enough to get my head around... so I can’t even begin to imagine what it would have been like if Scotland just decided one day they were going to declare independence. I mean Brexit is bad enough and that was legally decided :lol:
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Postby MusicRecords » Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:37 am

Why would they make a fool of themselves and declare independence though??
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Postby Serby » Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:48 am

We dont even know if there's majority in CATALONIA that are pro independence! All the researches from the past few years show almost 50% only are for it, but never real majority. Thats why I find all of this so absurd.
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Postby jio » Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:07 am

There is no legitimacy or international support for independence right now. In the absence of declaration the Catalan leader's career (sorry I forget his name) is over, since he has costed greatly to his region for nothing. His supporters were already calling him a traitor for not calling a snap election. So this is a political move. He is declaring independence in the hope that Madrid will react so stupidly that will save his career, increase nationalism and give some legitimacy to his cause. Its a desperate move IMO.
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Postby Wayne » Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:57 am

As expected, they central Spanish government has imposed rule over Catalonia - the deputy PM has been placed in charge.
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Postby imlookedat81 » Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:04 am

The majority in Catalonia doesn't want independence, only 47% people voted for pro-independence parties in the last elections there and none of those parties said at that time they wanted to declare independency (apart from the anti-capitalism party CUP). The pro-independence parties has been lying to their own voters promising Catalonia would still be part of Europe and enjoy all commercial treaties, even saying Spain would still pay for their pension if they become independent. How can you trust someone that keep lying to you like this? When companies starting moving to other regions in Spain is when many started realizing what Spanish central government and Europe have been saying all this time, an independent Catalonia would be immediately out of Europe. Spanish prime minister has now dismissed all Catalonian parliament and there will be real election on Dec 21.
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Postby maroon » Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:45 am

Catalonia will always be part of Europe and probably even the EU if it decides to go independent.
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Postby imlookedat81 » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:21 am

Of course I meant EU, Catalonia is part of the continent that’s pretty obvious. An independent Catalonia, even if referendum were agreed with Madrid, would be out of EU and all its treaties. Is not me saying but EU:

We also reiterate the legal position held by this Commission as well as by its predecessors. If a referendum were to be organised in line with the Spanish Constitution it would mean that the territory leaving would find itself outside of the European Union.
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_ST ... 626_en.htm

Independence would cause huge changes that would weaken the whole Catalan economy. First and foremost, Catalonia would remain outside the EU for the time being and for a few years to come. That would have devastating effects: first, on its relations with the rest of Spain (which accounts for considerably more than half of its usual trade) and also on tariffs with all the EU countries, the relocation of businesses, and disinvestment. All of that would diminish Catalan tax revenue and increase unemployment. Moreover, to the current Catalan public debt – the biggest in Spain by far – would have to be added the share of Spanish debt attributable to Catalonia in the division of assets according to international law. All that would produce an economic crisis that would last for many years, and the region that emerges from that crisis would not be the one we know now, but a much poorer Catalonia.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ont-add-up (Old article but pretty clear)

Although the best example is how companies and investment are running away, empty promises don’t hold the economy of a country. And if they claim this is legal, why they decided in the last moment to vote secretly? Aren’t they so brave to go against everything, even their own people, why not showing the vote them? I knew they were crazy, but never expected them to be so coward (talking about Catalonia government).
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Postby heppolo » Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:24 pm

MusicRecords wrote:Why would they make a fool of themselves and declare independence though??
Maybe they want to be a part of Russia, who knows.
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Postby menime123 » Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:44 pm

imlookedat81 wrote:Of course I meant EU, Catalonia is part of the continent that’s pretty obvious. An independent Catalonia, even if referendum were agreed with Madrid, would be out of EU and all its treaties. Is not me saying but EU:

We also reiterate the legal position held by this Commission as well as by its predecessors. If a referendum were to be organised in line with the Spanish Constitution it would mean that the territory leaving would find itself outside of the European Union.
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_ST ... 626_en.htm

Independence would cause huge changes that would weaken the whole Catalan economy. First and foremost, Catalonia would remain outside the EU for the time being and for a few years to come. That would have devastating effects: first, on its relations with the rest of Spain (which accounts for considerably more than half of its usual trade) and also on tariffs with all the EU countries, the relocation of businesses, and disinvestment. All of that would diminish Catalan tax revenue and increase unemployment. Moreover, to the current Catalan public debt – the biggest in Spain by far – would have to be added the share of Spanish debt attributable to Catalonia in the division of assets according to international law. All that would produce an economic crisis that would last for many years, and the region that emerges from that crisis would not be the one we know now, but a much poorer Catalonia.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ont-add-up (Old article but pretty clear)

Although the best example is how companies and investment are running away, empty promises don’t hold the economy of a country. And if they claim this is legal, why they decided in the last moment to vote secretly? Aren’t they so brave to go against everything, even their own people, why not showing the vote them? I knew they were crazy, but never expected them to be so coward (talking about Catalonia government).
The chances of it gained independance are though that the EU would fast track them through to membership - they don’t wanna lose anyone else :lol:
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Postby jio » Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:04 pm

The EU cannot fast track them through anything without Spanish approval. And there is no reason Spain would do such a thing. Actually there is no reason anybody in the EU would choose to support regions breaking away from current EU states.
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Postby DnBLover » Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:44 am

imlookedat you are so freaking biased it's unreal.
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Postby floria » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:34 am

DnBLover wrote:imlookedat you are so freaking biased it's unreal.
But he's right.
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Postby imlookedat81 » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:35 am

I'm not biased at all, all I post here are facts. I'm not even against independence, if there was a clear majority wanting to be independent in Catalonia I couldn't care less, but that is not the case (at least by now). Sure Spain economy would suffer for it but it would be nothing compare to how GDP in Catalonia would decrease. What I don't like is listening to pro-independence leaders lie after lie, when facts show the opposite of what they are saying. According to them after being independent Catalonia would be part of EU, companies won't leave (1700 have left after Oct 1), Spain would cover their debt and pension, even those wanting to keep Spanish nationality could do so, and of course FC Barcelona would still be playing Spanish football league. I encourage you to listen to any of the speeches from former president of Catalonia, that surely is unreal.

Anyway, there will be a "real" election in Catalonia on Dec 21 and all polls are telling support of pro-independence parties will decrease considerably. Let's discuss then.
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Postby Hugo » Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:34 pm

Catalonia leader travels to Brussels after asylum offer

Mr Puidgemont made the trip just hours after the Belgian immigration minister, Theo Francken, suggested he could be offered asylum over his treatment by Madrid.

The move came as prosecutors back in Spain called for the Catalan leader and his senior ministers, who orchestrated an illegal independence referendum, to be charged with rebellion.

If found guilty he could be sent to jail for 30 years, prompting Mr Francken to infuriate Madrid by claiming that the separatist leader is unlikely to receive a fair trial in Spain.

According to Spanish media Mr Puidgemont is meeting with senior figures in the Flemish nationalist party, which includes Mr Francken, to discuss his next moves.

The Spanish Government sacked him and dissolved the region’s parliament after its MPs voted on Friday to officially declare independence from Madrid and form a new Republic.

Mr Puigdemont is believed to have travelled with other members of the regional Government which was dismissed by the central government in Madrid on Friday.

The Catalan newspaper La Vanguardia is reporting that Mr Puigdemont could make a statement this afternoon whilst in Belgium.

Spain’s Interior Ministry sources have said that they are not "worried" about that trip by Mr Puigdemont to Brussels.

Four of the five Catalan government ministers in Brussels with Carles Puigdemont have been named as Meritxell Borràs, Toni Comin, Joaquim Forn and Dolors Bassa.

The unnamed fifth person is also understood to have been removed following Madrid’s imposition of direct rule following the Catalan Parliament unilateral declaration of independence last Friday.

Ms Bassa was the Minister for Employment and Social Affairs and Mr Forn Catalonia’s Interior Minister.

Mr Comin was in charge of health and Ms Borras was in charge of the areas of governance, public administration and housing.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/ ... ylum-offer
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Postby heppolo » Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:54 pm

Mess.
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Postby spiritboy » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:59 pm

heppolo wrote:Mess.
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Postby Serby » Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:16 am

This is kinda funny tbh. :lol: it's so soapy, the whole thing :lol:
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Postby Bojan » Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:27 am

imlookedat81 wrote:I'm not even against independence, if there was a clear majority wanting to be independent in Catalonia I couldn't care less, but that is not the case (at least by now).
They should let them have a referendum then. The unionists would win and problem solved.
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Postby jio » Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:47 am

Bojan wrote:
imlookedat81 wrote:I'm not even against independence, if there was a clear majority wanting to be independent in Catalonia I couldn't care less, but that is not the case (at least by now).
They should let them have a referendum then. The unionists would win and problem solved.
Actually the problem with such referendums are that if unionists win, the results are respected for 5-10 years until public opinion shifts for whatever reason. If seccessionists win, independence could happen and the consequences would be irreversible even if public opinion shifts again. Independence is not the only or most appropriate way to safeguard your ethnic differences. And its a very antieuropean thing to do, we are in a supranational and not nationalistic union, arent we?
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Postby MusicRecords » Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:21 pm

spiritboy wrote:
heppolo wrote:Mess.
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Postby imlookedat81 » Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:41 pm

Bojan wrote:
imlookedat81 wrote:I'm not even against independence, if there was a clear majority wanting to be independent in Catalonia I couldn't care less, but that is not the case (at least by now).
They should let them have a referendum then. The unionists would win and problem solved.
For that Spanish constitution needs to be changed, at the moment what Spain is, is decided by the whole country so if there were a referendum it would need to be in the whole country. And honestly I don’t see a reason why 2M people should have that right when other regions in Spain don’t have it. Historically Catalonia has never been a country, human rights are not at any risk there so why a referendum? But again, there are parties in Spain (like Podemos) that defend that Catalonia should have a referendum so in next general election they just need to get a clear majority and change constitution, then we can have as many referendums as we want.
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Postby Bojan » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:04 pm

Suriname withdraws its decision to recognize Kosovo's independence. Probably Catalonia effect. I hope that continues.
Historically Kosovo has never been a country, and unlike Catalans, Albanians already have their own country. Albania, clearly. :lol:
That being said Catalans deserves independence more.
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Postby maroon » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:23 pm

Kosovo should actually just ask Albania to join their country if such a vast majority of their citizens are ethnic Albanians.
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Postby Bojan » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:37 pm

maroon wrote:Kosovo should actually just ask Albania to join their country if such a vast majority of their citizens are ethnic Albanians.
And than Republika Srpska (Serbian Republic), which is half of Bosnia, would ask to join Serbia, and northern Kosovo, populated only by Serbs, would ask to join Serbia, and parts of Montenegro to Serbia and Albania, and half of Macedonia to Albania and so on and so on. That's why everyone in the EU and the USA is against it. Otherwise, it would already happen.

There are nearly 2 million of Serbs living in ex Yugoslav countries (excluding Serbia) + over 257,000 Serbs displaced from Croatia and Kosovo during the ethnic cleansing in the past 20 years. That's why Serbia is home to highest number of refugees and IDPs in Europe and it's 13th in the world (according to UNHCR).

Kosovo will never be truly independent because Serbia has some of the strongest allies: Russia, Israel, China, India, Brasil, Spain... It just won't happen. And meanwhile, people are massively leaving Kosovo because of unemployment, criminal, corruption... Kosovo is basically one huge ISIS training camp. Kosovo is even Serbian word, and almost all few centuries old buildings there protected by UNESCO are also Serbian.

Serbia is the most multi-ethnic state in Europe yet branded as the "evil one" in the western media, only because we're in good relations with Russia. Anything related to Russia must be bad, right?

Image really is everything today. Reality is completely ignored.

In short;
-Despite popular belief, Yugoslavia wasn't Serbian project, it was a project against Serbia, ruled by Croats and Slovenians mostly.
-The U.N. court says that Serbia didn't commit genocide in the 1990s.
-There are 186,633 ethnic Serbs living in Croatia today. The 1991 pre-war census had reported 581,663 Serbs living in Croatia.
-There are 47,033 Croats living in Serbia. The 1991 pre-war census had reported 74,226 Croats living in Serbia.
-Most of Kosovo's pre-1999 Serb population relocated to central Serbia and Montenegro following ethnic cleansing campaigns while many of the remaining Serbs outside North Kosovo live in small isolated communities, called enclaves.

So who's ethnic cleansing and who's the victim?
The facts is that only Serbs were victims of oppression and ethnic cleansing in Yugoslavia.
Last edited by Bojan on Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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