Midweeks charts copyright issue

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Postby lars » Tue Jul 29, 2003 9:04 pm

The Official UK Charts Company have been in touch with UKMIX to complain about unauthorised use of the midweeks charts information.

Apparently, fans should not be allowed to know facts and figures about the music they buy.

Personally I don't see how discussing the midweeks can be anything but a good thing. Taking copyright enforcement to the fans is at best short-sighted, probably a lot uglier than that.

Anyway, my opinion has no bearing on the law. Unfortunately, it's difficult to establish exactly how much discussion of charts is "legal" without paying up a fat wad of notes for proper legal advice. So I'm going to have to err on the side of caution.

I will need to remove/edit some posts in the Midweeks topic, now and probably again when I receive more information about alleged copyright infringement.

From now on, please do not post any chart information that can be construed as infringing copyright. This means specific chart placings or listings. The midweeks information should be considered more sensitive than regular chart placings; while it's probably ok to say "Madonna's at the top of this week's chart" after the weekly Top 40 rundown, it's probably not ok to say "Madonna's at the top of the midweeks chart" halfway through the week.

If you want to be extra safe, avoid thinking about chart positions immediately before and during a session on the UKMIX forums. ;-)

Anyone who posts midweeks info will be causing us a lot of bother, as we'll need to delete posts and respond to complaints about copyright infringement, so we'll have to (reluctantly) deal with it as other forms of forums abuse.
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Postby Dazzle » Tue Jul 29, 2003 9:09 pm

And people wonder why sales of the single are dying! :roll:

I dont know if that has anything to do with it - but still. I made a point! :lol:

Ah well. People can tell me on MSN! :wink:
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Postby danlucky16 » Tue Jul 29, 2003 9:11 pm

Well, i've found out where they are now, so i'll juss acrry on going there !!
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Postby S4BUK » Tue Jul 29, 2003 9:20 pm

Doh! :cry:
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Postby matthew_dixon » Tue Jul 29, 2003 9:24 pm

Okay this is the confirmation we were waiting for. The Official Charts Company had to go to Lars direct about it, and they have. Lars, I actually see no way that posts in the "Midweeks" topic can be edited - it's a topic that actively discusses the actual midweek chart positions (though in fairness doesn't normally divulge sales information - that is sensitive).

So, in line with the official rules of the Official UK Charts Company, I am left with no choice :cry:

*reaches into pocket to get biggest key he's ever had to use*

Lars, Aneta, Amir, feel free to do whatever you want whilst I'm away... but for now... topic locked :o
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Postby Dazzle » Tue Jul 29, 2003 9:26 pm

:o :o :o

Isn't that going too far? :o
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Postby cooltrigger » Tue Jul 29, 2003 9:27 pm

Oh this bums! :cry:
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Postby matthew_dixon » Tue Jul 29, 2003 9:29 pm

lars wrote:This means specific chart placings or listings.
That entire topic is about specific chart placings :o
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Postby Dazzle » Tue Jul 29, 2003 9:31 pm

This is just stupid! :x

Loadsa places say about the midweeks. MTv and all that say whos on top, teletext...
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Postby lars » Tue Jul 29, 2003 9:37 pm

matthew_dixon wrote:Lars, Aneta, Amir, feel free to do whatever you want whilst I'm away... but for now... topic locked :o
Sorry for the confusion but I didn't actually want to go ahead and lock the topic at this time. People can still talk about charts in general. Or the weather. ;-)
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Postby S4BUK » Tue Jul 29, 2003 10:08 pm

Its cold where I am.
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Postby ChrisH » Tue Jul 29, 2003 10:13 pm

S4BUK wrote:Its cold where I am.
It's cold where I am too, but I feel warm inside...
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Postby loopdaloop_69 » Wed Jul 30, 2003 1:07 pm

^ Hehe, awww :D !

Anyways, so I just wanna check, can we even say 'blah blah looks like he/she might just scrape the top 50 by Sunday' if we know they're like number 50-something in the midweeks :-? ?
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Postby Dan » Wed Jul 30, 2003 1:54 pm

If we hear on the radio (or from anywhere else) that somebody is at number 'x' in the midweeks, are we allowed to discuss that, but not to 'publish' the whole chart? Otherwise, what would be the point in them at all? Surely it's just quoting, like quoting a line from an article or a statistic from a piece of research.

I agree with most people that this is ridiculous, but I guess there's not a great deal you can do.
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Postby matthew_dixon » Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:04 pm

I think it's fine to discuss where someone is in the midweek charts as part of a topic about that artist. I think the problem is a topic like the "Midweeks" topic where someone publishes a full set of midweeks.
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Postby oscar » Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:23 pm

I was just as amazed to read this announcement as anyone I guess ... at least at first. What possible reason could The Official UK Charts Company have to do this?

Are they afraid of unfair competition if charts already are published in the middle of the week? Well they are supposed to be independant (of record company that is) so why bother? :-?

So are they afraid that discussion about the Midweeks Charts will ruin the record sales in general? No, because as Lars pointed out so well: discussion most likely only leads to more sales! :-?

So what could be the reason for this remarkable move from The Official UK Charts Company then?

And then I read the (not so tiny) key-word in Lars' message: copyright. Copyright is all about who owns published data. If you don't own the data, you can not publish them. Unless ... you pay a huge sum of money so the owner grants you the publishing rights! That is what this is all about dear UKMIX-ers! My guess is that The Official UK Charts Company has thought of a new way of generating money!

Now all I wonder is who they will find silly enough to pay a ridiculous sum of money to be able to publish the midweeks?! :-? Ah but forgive me, that information is confidential ... :lol:
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Postby matthew_dixon » Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:31 pm

Oscar - I wasn't surprised in the slightest by this. They've already done the same at http://www.dotmusic.com and http://www.dvdfever.co.uk and apparently was the reason that http://www.worldpop.com closed so abruptly (although that last one is open for debate). I guessed it would probably be a matter of time before they came after us as well. They had apparently already attempted asking through a member of UKMIX communnity that they have contact with - which seems like a perverse way of contacting us, but this person does apparently have close contact with someone quite high up in the OCC. It's an odd rule they have. I can understand them not wanting full sales information published because it's confidential, however the actual chart positions seem to only encourage some people to buy more copies of failing singles to stop them failing too badly.
Last edited by matthew_dixon on Thu Jul 31, 2003 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby lars » Wed Jul 30, 2003 7:20 pm

Dan wrote:If we hear on the radio (or from anywhere else) that somebody is at number 'x' in the midweeks, are we allowed to discuss that, but not to 'publish' the whole chart? Otherwise, what would be the point in them at all? Surely it's just quoting, like quoting a line from an article or a statistic from a piece of research.
I think what you're talking about here is 'fair use'. I expect it's legal to discuss things in the manner you say above, although I urge caution in general beause there's definitely such a thing as 'unfair legal pressure'!
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Postby S4BUK » Wed Jul 30, 2003 9:01 pm

I miss Worldpop :(
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Postby S4BUK » Wed Jul 30, 2003 9:04 pm

Worldpop closed because it went bankrupt.

It was so nice there, I got sent a free CD from Nurse Pop :).

*reminisses*
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Postby matthew_dixon » Wed Jul 30, 2003 9:06 pm

Yeah and apparently it was because their point blank refusal to do anything about their publication of the midweek charts each week resulted in an absolutely huge fine.
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Postby oscar » Thu Jul 31, 2003 6:57 am

Like I said Matthew, all it simply has to do with is money! So yes, having thought about it (like I explained in my previous post) I wasn't suprised about it either.

Copyright means you have the intellectual property of that particular piece of information. Having that, means that no-one else may publish it without your authorization. For example look at the copyright notice underneath each UKMIX page!

The Official UK Charts Company obviously thinks that they can earn a certain amount of money with this information. Otherwise they would not bother to undergo this sort of action. Fair use really has no meaning, once a company like this sees an oppertunity to get some extra profit. And how they intend to do this remains a mystery, so far at least ...
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Postby Deadman » Thu Jul 31, 2003 11:08 am

Well okay, firstly i was going to say a fair bit on this but i've been asked (not told but asked) not to say much about the situation.

This was always going to happen and it just happened somewhat later rather than sooner - but better this way than well let's just say it could have been harsher.

Other stes have also been told to stop so don't feel that UKMIX are being unfairly treated. There are very good reasons for not wanting publication of the midweeks (which i won't disclose on the forums) and to be honest it was inevitable.

I wanted to say a fair bit more but i can't but for what its worth i think you've dealt with the situation very well Lars and this situation could have got quite messy but it was dealt with in the proper and mature manor - so well done on that front.
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Postby SholasBoy » Thu Jul 31, 2003 11:54 am

I remember that www.clickmusic.co.uk used to post the midweeks, but they suddenly stopped, as did Channel 5 teletext.
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Postby Aliiyssa » Thu Jul 31, 2003 2:11 pm

That's stoopid.

I mean, like Dazzle said, the midweeks are talked about all the time, the other day MTV and in the Sun today were on about how Blu was gonna be #1.

I don't see why we can't talk about it.
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