View Poll Results: How will you be voting in the upcoming G/E?

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  • Conservative

    3 25.00%
  • Labour

    5 41.67%
  • Liberal Democrat

    1 8.33%
  • SNP

    1 8.33%
  • Green

    1 8.33%
  • Other (specify in topic)

    1 8.33%
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Thread: UK Politics: how will you be voting in the upcoming General Election?

  1. #1651
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    by » Wed March 27th, 2019, 14:21

    Quote Originally Posted by menime123 View Post
    So the online petition will be debated in parliament on April’s Fools Day
    I wonder how many from Gibraltar has signed it
    Waffles are checked cookies

  2. #1652
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    by » Wed March 27th, 2019, 16:25

    An online petition cannot possibly overturn a referendum (unless you are Greece of course)...

  3. #1653
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    by » Wed March 27th, 2019, 16:34

    Quote Originally Posted by jio View Post
    An online petition cannot possibly overturn a referendum (unless you are Greece of course)...
    Except referendum on Brexit wasn't legally binding to begin with. What is binding is Article 50 which UK politicians voted for and nobody put a gun to their head to do it. The referendum was just a more official version of an online petition.

  4. #1654
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    by » Wed March 27th, 2019, 16:40

    Quote Originally Posted by beredy View Post
    Except referendum on Brexit wasn't legally binding to begin with. What is binding is Article 50 which UK politicians voted for and nobody put a gun to their head to do it. The referendum was just a more official version of an online petition.
    Sure. Also an online petition could overturn a referendum if the parliament decides so in the narrow legal sense but I mean it would be democratically awkward and raise all kinds of questions in the future (similar to what the future will say about the EU-Turkey agreement or about Greece's latest bailout I suppose) and nobody should be supporting such moves IMO. A referendum can be overturned legitimately only by another referendum but that's not an option right now. Also I have to say that it's also awkward and wrong IMO for parliament to take over executive responsibilities because it goes against the separation of powers in a democratic society.

    Bottom line of all this is that in the EU we have reached a point that no further integration as usual is possible without hurting democracy and thus jeopardizing the whole European unity dream. That's my point all along

  5. #1655
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    by » Wed March 27th, 2019, 16:52

    You're mixing so many things. Just because there's an idea of a perfect democratic society, doesn't mean that the actual realization of it is perfect. And every democratic society is different.

    UK has a system which you might like or not. In UK it is not the truth that a referendum can be only overturned by another referendum as referendum in the UK is not legally, politically or in any other way binding to begin with. No matter what the result of the referendum in the UK is, the Government and the Parliament can still do it the way they want to. So if they decide to revoke Article 50 and stay in the EU, they don't need another referendum. They didn't need the referendum to vote for Article 50 and Brexit to begin with. It was just an excuse to push a narrative that people chose it, but the seeds have been sown by British politicians for Euro skepticism long time ago. It just so happened that the tides have been perfect for getting the majority on leave EU at that point in time.

    It's funny that you end up concluding EU is hurting the democracy, when in actuality it's closer to the ideal concept of democracy than UK is (and some other member countries).

  6. #1656
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    by » Wed March 27th, 2019, 17:00

    But you are talking legalities and you are right. But you have to remember that laws are there to serve a purpose and in a democracy the purpose is to serve the will of the people. The thing with referendums is that there is no other instrument where the will of the people is expressed so clearly so yes it might be legally possible to ignore it but it's absolutely not democratically possible to ignore. The only example I know where a referendum was completely ignored as if it never happened was in Greece and that move damaged whatever respect had been left for the rule of law and democracy in the country. You can argue (and I would agree with you) that lots of times is counterproductive to call referendums but once you call it you have to respect it no matter what the law says.

    The EU itself is not based on the idea of democracy at all. It's based on a very different concept that has been tried many times in history and always failed. The concept is that of a scientifically educated logically-thinking elite benefiting governments by reducing their natural affection to populism. It's basically elitism. In EU institutions there is not any basic characteristic of a democratic society present (and I can explain to you why if you want although it ain't that easy). Despite that an ever closer union could lead to democratic reforms on the EU level but that has not happened so far.

  7. #1657
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    by » Wed March 27th, 2019, 17:16

    Quote Originally Posted by jio View Post
    But you are talking legalities and you are right. But you have to remember that laws are there to serve a purpose and in a democracy the purpose is to serve the will of the people. The thing with referendums is that there is no other instrument where the will of the people is expressed so clearly so yes it might be legally possible to ignore it but it's absolutely not democratically possible to ignore. The only example I know where a referendum was completely ignored as if it never happened was in Greece and that move damaged whatever respect had been left for the rule of law and democracy in the country. You can argue (and I would agree with you) that lots of times is counterproductive to call referendums but once you call it you have to respect it no matter what the law says.

    The EU itself is not based on the idea of democracy at all. It's based on a very different concept that has been tried many times in history and always failed. The concept is that of a scientifically educated logically-thinking elite benefiting governments by reducing their natural affection to populism. It's basically elitism. In EU institutions there is not any basic characteristic of a democratic society present (and I can explain to you why if you want although it ain't that easy). Despite that an ever closer union could lead to democratic reforms on the EU level but that has not happened so far.
    In March, 1991 a referendum in 9 of 15 Soviet Union states showed 77% support for keeping it as a sovereign federation of republics.
    However, till the end of 1991 in each of those republics there were new independence referendums which showed overwhelming support for the independence.
    This meant that during one year people voted overwhelmingly for two contrary issues.

    Referendums is a nice tool but those can be framed (question-wise) and hijacked by populists and extemists who may look and sound convincing at first glance even more than the general elections ever since the choice is binary most of the time.
    Waffles are checked cookies

  8. #1658
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    by » Wed March 27th, 2019, 17:26

    Thank you for that example that I didn't know heppolo and I do agree with your point (I did say you could argue it's counterproductive...) However I insist referendums should not be ignored no matter what the reasons people voted as they did because then you make a mockery of democracy and that's somewhere nobody should be going.

    That said in the case of the UK that argument (hijacked by populists) is rather thin since the UK was historically ambivalent towards EU membership. Also I have a problem with the term "populist" itself as it is given freely to whoever is against the EU without examining if their arguments are valid or not. It's as if we consider the EU the new gospel or something and is above criticism lol.
    Last edited by jio; Wed March 27th, 2019 at 17:29.

  9. #1659
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    by » Wed March 27th, 2019, 17:29

    Quote Originally Posted by jio View Post
    But you are talking legalities and you are right. But you have to remember that laws are there to serve a purpose and in a democracy the purpose is to serve the will of the people. The thing with referendums is that there is no other instrument where the will of the people is expressed so clearly so yes it might be legally possible to ignore it but it's absolutely not democratically possible to ignore. The only example I know where a referendum was completely ignored as if it never happened was in Greece and that move damaged whatever respect had been left for the rule of law and democracy in the country. You can argue (and I would agree with you) that lots of times is counterproductive to call referendums but once you call it you have to respect it no matter what the law says.

    The EU itself is not based on the idea of democracy at all. It's based on a very different concept that has been tried many times in history and always failed. The concept is that of a scientifically educated logically-thinking elite benefiting governments by reducing their natural affection to populism. It's basically elitism. In EU institutions there is not any basic characteristic of a democratic society present (and I can explain to you why if you want although it ain't that easy). Despite that an ever closer union could lead to democratic reforms on the EU level but that has not happened so far.
    Let's get things clear: the result of the 2016 Referendum has not been ignored. The Government has twice tried to get it through and failed miserably. But try it did. Parliament is sovereign despite what the right wing media and lying Brexiteers said. A MP's duty is to act in the best interests of their constituency. That's why the Maybot's deal has not passed: it's a rubbish deal and therefore not in the interests of the UK.

    Although the 2016 Ref was not legally binding which was a deliberate decision, a 2nd Ref could be made legally binding.
    Last edited by Kpop; Wed March 27th, 2019 at 18:00.

  10. #1660
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    by » Wed March 27th, 2019, 17:33

    But the referendum did not come in support of Maybot's deal. It supported Brexit. So if Maybot's deal is crap then throw it away and come up with something else but respect Brexit which is the will of the people. Doing endless referendums until we get the result we want (under coercion that is since the only reason people might be voting differently is fear about their future) may be the EU way but it also makes a mockery of democracy.

  11. #1661
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    by » Wed March 27th, 2019, 20:03

    So May will step down if her deal passes. I’m not sure it will do it’s slightly meaningless

  12. #1662
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    by » Wed March 27th, 2019, 20:06

    This has me scratching my head tbh.

  13. #1663
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    by » Wed March 27th, 2019, 20:21

    So they like the deal not the messenger?

    I think that the PM thanks them for that, as she probably is fed up with all this situation!
    "Complaining is an advertisement for stupidity"

  14. #1664
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    by » Wed March 27th, 2019, 20:52

    The career Tories have been playing this to their advantage, and she needed to offer her resignation to try and get her deal through - if she genuinely believes it’s the best way forward then offering to leave is the right thing (if it helps).

    Not convinced she’ll get her deal through though

  15. #1665
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    by » Wed March 27th, 2019, 21:21

    A reverse confidence vote experience.

    Pass the government's bill to get rid of your government. I'm pretty sure that's a first.

  16. #1666
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    by » Wed March 27th, 2019, 21:50

    Who has the right to make a movie about the whole Brexit mess?
    My Instagram... - Click here

  17. #1667
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    by » Wed March 27th, 2019, 22:31

    As I have said earlier, Theresa should have offered Arlene to become the PM if Arlene supports her deal
    Waffles are checked cookies

  18. #1668
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    by » Wed March 27th, 2019, 22:43

    Oh my god I can’t believe this. Parliament voted NO to everything

  19. #1669
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    by » Thu March 28th, 2019, 06:56

    “Another day, another deal” ~ Brexit Proverb
    | Ciara | Beyoncé | Janet | Toni | Kelly R | Leona | Tinashe | Whitney | Brandy | Monica | Tevin | Mariah | Britney | Tamia |

  20. #1670
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    by » Thu March 28th, 2019, 10:59

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8843131.html


    Labour need to get fully behind a 2nd Ref, and get us out of this mess

  21. #1671
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    by » Thu March 28th, 2019, 11:11

    Quote Originally Posted by menime123 View Post
    Oh my god I can’t believe this. Parliament voted NO to everything
    No Remain, no Leave, no nothing
    Waffles are checked cookies

  22. #1672
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    by » Thu March 28th, 2019, 11:23

    After these votes, let me quote myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by beredy View Post
    Your politicians are currently your only enemy. They hold the whole UK a hostage to EU and the people of UK because they haven't been able to work out the deal in 3 years.
    If May's deal goes through just because this time she offered her resignation, then the pettiness and personal interests of British politics will fully come into view (not that it's shocking as unfortunately the political elite is the same in the whole world).

  23. #1673
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    by » Thu March 28th, 2019, 11:51

    Quote Originally Posted by beredy View Post
    After these votes, let me quote myself.



    If May's deal goes through just because this time she offered her resignation, then the pettiness and personal interests of British politics will fully come into view (not that it's shocking as unfortunately the political elite is the same in the whole world).
    It's looking even more likely now that Maybot's deal is dead since yesterday's pronouncement by Arlene Foster of the DUP. Maybot doesn't have the numbers. Real-Fogg will now not be supporting it since the DUP won't back it.

    What I don't understand is how is Maybot's resignation connected to the hugely contentious Back-Stop. Maybot stays or resigns: the Back-Stop remains the same.
    Last edited by Kpop; Thu March 28th, 2019 at 11:56.

  24. #1674
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    by » Thu March 28th, 2019, 12:03

    Quote Originally Posted by beredy View Post
    After these votes, let me quote myself.



    If May's deal goes through just because this time she offered her resignation, then the pettiness and personal interests of British politics will fully come into view (not that it's shocking as unfortunately the political elite is the same in the whole world).
    If it goes through though, I think it’s partly to do with the fact the majority of MPs are in agreement ‘no deal’ must not happen. The best Brexit is the one that happens imo.

  25. #1675
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    by » Thu March 28th, 2019, 12:33

    They want her out after the deal passes, because if after brexit things turn bad, they will blame Theresa May and say it's her fault and that they voted for the deal because she didn't gave any alternatives.
    "Complaining is an advertisement for stupidity"

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