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Thread: The controversial abortion restrictions sweeping the US

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    by » Sun May 19th, 2019, 19:16

    Quote Originally Posted by KEY9481 View Post
    How come humanity in general seems to take one step forward to then make three steps backward...
    Because we let tiny groups of people with limited experience of real life make decisions that will impact millions.

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    by » Sun May 19th, 2019, 19:26

    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBreakaway View Post
    I just want to point out that the situation is the same, if not worse in Northern Ireland. People going to England for an abortion and getting arrested when they come back home. People being forced to keep the baby of a rapist etc

    It's disgusting and sad and scary that so many people think that they can have a say on a woman's body. Her choice. Simple as that
    The Northern Ireland situation breaks my heart - especially when you read about mums having to travel to the UK for an abortion where it's legal only to then smuggle their dead babies back to Ireland for burial...

    ‘Dead babies smuggled back to Ireland after abortion in UK’, group warns

    Families have testified to the 8th Amendment panel


    Families place dead babies in “hand luggage” to smuggle them back for burial because of Ireland’s confusing abortion laws, an advocacy group said last night.

    Terminations For Medical Reasons is a group of parents who have lost children to fatal foetal abnormalities and have experienced great distress in seeking medical treatment.

    They were forced to travel to the UK for abortions and their testimony was made before the Eighth Amendment committee last evening.

    TFMR Ireland detailed how they bought “freezer packs” for their dead infant for the trip home.


    The group explains how the medical treatment they receive in Ireland is excellent, but legal constraints mean there is only so much can be done for them here and often they must make the most difficult decisions after that.

    TFMR Ireland said they currently feel abandoned by the State after that.

    It said: “Nobody should be judged for coming to the point where hope ends.

    “At a time when we are experiencing the most intense grief of our lives, we find ourselves in another country having left Ireland in secret, feeling like medical refugees.

    “We are abandoned by Ireland - the State and its people – isolated from our families and friends, and separated from the trusted medical team who looked after us up to this point.”

    TDs and senators on the committee were told about the tragic dilemmas facing parents trying to bring their deceased children home from the UK for a funeral here. “If we have our car we can bring our baby home on the boat.

    “This journey involves us having to go to a supermarket to buy freezer packs, and then we have to stop at regular intervals to open the coffin and change them so that we can keep our baby cold.

    “We also have to leave our baby in a coffin in our car, covered by a blanket or in the boot, while we cross the Irish Sea.

    “If we are coming home by ferry but don’t have a car, we have to carry the coffin on public transport – buses or trains – and carry our baby onto the ferry as a foot passenger.

    “If we are flying home, we may be able to bring our baby’s remains on the plane.

    “We have to check in advance with the airlines and deal with their special assistance staff. We may need to place the coffin in a holdall or suitcase and check it in as luggage.

    “This will mean our baby will be put in the hold by baggage handlers and we will have to collect them from a luggage carousel.

    “Alternatively, we could take the coffin onto the plane as hand luggage.”

    “The stigma associated with travel is enormous and many of us fear the gossip and judgement from family, friends or community, and this is more than we can bear.”

    The Eighth Amendment special committee has been inviting experts to give evidence for the past month.

    It will present its findings in a report by December 20.
    An outright ban on abortion is immoral, subhuman, counterproductive and utterly disgraceful.

  3. #53
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    by » Sun May 19th, 2019, 20:03

    I seen that particular story before. It makes me mad to think that my teenage nieces would be forced to carry a baby they didn't want. It scares me even more that there could be some young girl who's too ashamed to tell anyone so tries to do something herself. It's truly horrific.
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    by » Sun May 19th, 2019, 23:43

    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBreakaway View Post
    I just want to point out that the situation is the same, if not worse in Northern Ireland. People going to England for an abortion and getting arrested when they come back home. People being forced to keep the baby of a rapist etc

    It's disgusting and sad and scary that so many people think that they can have a say on a woman's body. Her choice. Simple as that


    You’re right. But there’s a huge difference to never having the right to abort and suddenly having it taken away from you. The situation in NI (and even Ireland) is a total joke imo.

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    by » Tue May 21st, 2019, 09:17

    It is a controversial subject and it's interesting to see people's perspectives on it. As someone who is big on responsibility, my feeling is that, if you have sex which leads to pregnancy and you are in a position to raise that child (ie, there is a healthy home environment, mum + dad are keen to co-parent, there is some financial resource etc), the best thing to do is raise that child, right? That's what I think. But I understand how incredibly idealistic that is.

    As much as I would like everyone to take responsibility for their actions, the reality is that, plenty of people can't. My wishing it so, won't change that. And, these are big stakes after all, it's human life.

    When Roe vs Wade was passed in the 1970s it had the economic effect of reducing the crime rate in the late 1980s and 90s. How? Because the reality is that while abortion is (was) an option for all women, the majority who undertake the procedure are from lower socio-economic backgrounds and/or racial minority groups. What happened is that youths of a certain age who would otherwise likely turn to lives of petty crime were not born in the 70s and 80s to commit said crimes. I've reduced that - there's more you can read online but it's a fascinating read.

    It's not for me to argue the morality of the subject. I believe in the value of life, absolutely. But in doing the 'right' thing, we have to consider: if a baby is born to resentful parents, an environment that may not be able to provide financially or nutritionally or educationally, or perhaps even worse, is exposed to traumatic or problematic households...... what life are we giving that baby?

    All well and good to for conservatives to preach the pro-life (I am absolutely pro-life in a metaphorical way, and not pro-abortion as a means to an end for the sake of it) but if they insist on taking the choice from women, then I suggest they prepare themselves to handle the oncoming additional children who will be born into situations that can't care for them.

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    by » Tue May 21st, 2019, 11:30

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicRecords View Post
    Well it should simply be the mothers choice, especially when it’s her that has to have the baby growing in her for 9 months and give birth....plus they’re not even considering women who have been raped. So now if a woman is raped she has to be forced to have the baby? Terrible

    yes its sad, but I think it would be even worse if the baby was to be born by a mother who didn’t want him/her in the first place. If you are not ready to bring a child to this world, you should have the option not to...especially if it was the product of rape or something.
    Are you really that ignorant? So all babies who were born from being raped should have not existed?

    First of all, there are women who are raped who were able to accept the babies and have them raised despite the unwanted circumstance. There's even a support group for raped women and children born to rape victims. Not to mention, a woman who is raped is not in her right state of mind due to the trauma and stress of it all. Just because she got raped and doesn't want the baby makes it correct to kill the baby right away.

    Secondly, there is this thing called adoption. If you cannot bear seeing the face of your child, then you can be a more helpful human being by giving that unwanted child to someone who can't bear children who wants children of their own.

    This whole women's rights, women's bodies thing went out of hand. I'm not going to be surprised if one day, sedated women who gave birth are given temporary rights to kill their children because they opt to do so since they gave birth to them or for whatever stupid reason these women's rights people think of.
    Last edited by GetBack; Tue May 21st, 2019 at 11:35.

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    by » Tue May 21st, 2019, 11:43

    This whole women's rights, women's bodies thing went out of hand.
    oh wow this is so surprising coming from you *pretends to be shocked*

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    by » Tue May 21st, 2019, 15:51

    Quote Originally Posted by BeeBoy View Post
    oh wow this is so surprising coming from you *pretends to be shocked*
    Yes people have different opinions, nothing surprising or wrong with that, I think people from both sides of this topic have expressed valid points and concerns, there really is no need for the attitude.
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    by » Tue May 21st, 2019, 16:11

    Quote Originally Posted by GetBack View Post
    Are you really that ignorant? So all babies who were born from being raped should have not existed?

    First of all, there are women who are raped who were able to accept the babies and have them raised despite the unwanted circumstance. There's even a support group for raped women and children born to rape victims. Not to mention, a woman who is raped is not in her right state of mind due to the trauma and stress of it all. Just because she got raped and doesn't want the baby makes it correct to kill the baby right away.

    Secondly, there is this thing called adoption. If you cannot bear seeing the face of your child, then you can be a more helpful human being by giving that unwanted child to someone who can't bear children who wants children of their own.

    This whole women's rights, women's bodies thing went out of hand. I'm not going to be surprised if one day, sedated women who gave birth are given temporary rights to kill their children because they opt to do so since they gave birth to them or for whatever stupid reason these women's rights people think of.
    Lol u need to read better, I never said all babies born because of raped shouldn’t have existed. I am simply saying that if a woman is raped she can decide whether she wants the baby or not. Many women go and have the baby and thats fine, but if a woman doesn’t want it, she should have the right to decide.

    Yes she can also decide to put it in adoption, but it’s not for us (especially men) to say it that simply when she’s the one who will have to deal with a pregnancy for 9 months, which isn’t always the most pleasing thing. I think that’s ignorant of you to say, it’s not as simple as saying *oh I was raped let me just wait 9 months, birth this baby and put it in adoption, no big deal* Yeah right
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    by » Tue May 21st, 2019, 16:30

    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyCrazy View Post
    Yes people have different opinions, nothing surprising or wrong with that, I think people from both sides of this topic have expressed valid points and concerns, there really is no need for the attitude.
    I don't see ANY valid points. My first post didn't have any attitude involved. This will and I am not at all surprised that you two found each other Women should be allowed to do with their bodies what they want. Period. There is no conciousness involved. So no 'what if ya mama wouldve aborted you". No one would know and care. This is just opression and needing to dabate about this in 2019 shows damn well "that this women's right movement" did not go to far! Who are you guys to tell anyone what to do?! If a woman wants to keep a fetus she damn well is allowed to and if not she should be as well. End of discussion

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    by » Tue May 21st, 2019, 16:45

    Quote Originally Posted by BeeBoy View Post
    oh wow this is so surprising coming from you *pretends to be shocked*
    I thought the same
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    by » Tue May 21st, 2019, 18:07

    Quote Originally Posted by BeeBoy View Post
    I don't see ANY valid points. My first post didn't have any attitude involved. This will and I am not at all surprised that you two found each other Women should be allowed to do with their bodies what they want. Period. There is no conciousness involved. So no 'what if ya mama wouldve aborted you". No one would know and care. This is just opression and needing to dabate about this in 2019 shows damn well "that this women's right movement" did not go to far! Who are you guys to tell anyone what to do?! If a woman wants to keep a fetus she damn well is allowed to and if not she should be as well. End of discussion
    I think that’s an example of a one dimensional view...there are quite a few valid points in this thread...and there is nothing wrong with questioning things and looking at different perspectives...questions like when does the baby have a right to life...it’s good to at-least try and see why people feel the way they feel without getting overly emotional.

    I’m OK with abortion at an early period myself but it’s good to understand where others are coming from and to actually listen to what they are saying.
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    by » Tue May 21st, 2019, 21:52

    Today i read an article on FB that a rapist can sue his victim if she gets an abortion, in Arkansas. Is that true? If true, what a disgusting thing.
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    by » Wed May 22nd, 2019, 01:03

    Don't have uterus, don't get a say, that easy.

    Especially if you normally don't care at all about orphans, poor, disabled and otherwise marginalised people.

    This law is nothing but a uterus to a prison pipeline.
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    by » Wed May 22nd, 2019, 09:16

    Quote Originally Posted by Serby View Post
    Don't have uterus, don't get a say, that easy.

    Especially if you normally don't care at all about orphans, poor, disabled and otherwise marginalised people.

    This law is nothing but a uterus to a prison pipeline.
    Actually, you do. Every man should be outraged on behalf of their mother, sisters, aunts, friends and every female in the world. Abortion isn’t a luxury. It isn’t something women go into lightly. Some women (or girls) know they won’t be able to look after the child and give them the right life yet are being forced into it.

    Some children are happy little accidents and that’s fine. I expect most of us are anyway. But not everyone wants a child. I know of a woman who has had 11 children and every single one of them ended up in care and only some were adopted out. How is that right?

    Abortions should be free and legal around the world. If a woman is against them on religious grounds she simply doesn’t need to have one. Or at the very least, make the morning after pill much readily available for women.

    I can’t help but think there’s some dirty politics going on here and they’re simply thinking of ways to boost taxes in 20 years time.

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    by » Wed May 22nd, 2019, 09:26

    Pregnant people can also not give a funk about having an abortion and it's still fine. We need to drop this mentality that only 'sad abortion stories' are valid.

    Also, morning after pill is avaliable only to people below 200 pounds or sth, so there's also medical fathphobia in the game too atm.
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    by » Thu May 23rd, 2019, 21:45

    I agree about ending the sad abortion narratives.

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    by » Fri May 24th, 2019, 10:47

    Lots of babies end up being thrown in trash cans or toilets here, how is it better than abortion?
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    by » Fri May 24th, 2019, 11:28

    Quote Originally Posted by Serby View Post
    Don't have uterus, don't get a say, that easy.
    You see, I'm all for abortion but I think this argument is really weak.
    You can obviously make equivalences and say "if you never did drugs, you don't have a say in drug laws" or "if you don't own a pet, you don't have a say in it" or "if you do not have a child, you don't have a say in child-related laws", "if you don't live in such country, you have no say in their law, even if it involves murdering people for being gay or against the political party".

    The big issue with this argument is that a mother is not the sole responsible for deciding the life of her son. So if she is tired of her children, can she kill them just because they came out of her body? Obviously, you can come up with the case of a mother who gets pregnant just to kill the foetuses when they are about to be born? Her body her rules?

    The key issue here, in my opinion, is when is a baby considered a human life which has human rights?

    So abortion should be discussed within society, including men, infertile women, etc. And it should be up to science to provide the basis for the law. Not for each individual person, we don't live in an anarchy.

    Because you don't have to be poor to promote laws to end puberty. You don't have to be gay to recognize gay people's rights. Etc etc etc.
    Last edited by DnBLover; Fri May 24th, 2019 at 11:31.
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    by » Fri May 24th, 2019, 13:01

    Looking at abortions as purely a scientific issue is a mistake though as one must consider the social factors at play as well for every family.

    Besides, there are very few things science is 100% sure about. Turning to it to answer a philosophical question may not be the wisest thing.

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    by » Fri May 24th, 2019, 13:51

    This is really just about when does an embryo become a human life. "Pro-lifers" defend that it starts at the egg stage or whatever, and that is what's driving these ridiculous laws. Saying "you don't have a uterus, you don't get to decide" does nothing to change the system. All laws should be based on scientific evidence. Who decides doesn't matter as long as it is based on reality and not fiction books from thousands of years ago. Period. Church and state must be separate things
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    by » Sat May 25th, 2019, 13:08

    If science said embryo is a human from 10th week, still don't matter.

    You also compared two things that are not comparable. Addiction which is an ilness etc vs control over your own body.

    And actually I'm taking back that no uterus no opinion comment cuz it was white woman who pushed this through. This laws are an attack and controlling poor people and people of colour, who anyway have the least access to reproductive education and medical care (especially poc) and even when they do, there's medical apartheid still going on. It's no coincidence these laws were first adapted in states with large numbers of Black people living there.

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    by » Sat May 25th, 2019, 13:19

    Also, how about instead of spending time on discussing reproductive rights of others we put the same energy into fighting and calling out sexist behaviour cuz for some reason society expects women to do the work. Same goes for hetero calling out homophobia, cis people calling out transphobia etc. And last but not least, white people callng out fellow whites on their racist behaviours and language.

    Just focus on holding your own group accountable.
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    by » Sat May 25th, 2019, 13:32

    Quote Originally Posted by Serby
    And actually I'm taking back that no uterus no opinion comment cuz it was white woman who pushed this through.
    What???! Are you listening to yourself? If it was a black woman it was ok but because it's a white woman it's trash?
    This is an alternative authority fallacy... I'm shocked.

    I'm still thinking for myself, thank you.

    The above theory is also quite far-fetched in my opinion. And I already think the US is a bat shit crazy country. Further, that post is frankly fear-mongering and pitting races against each other.

    Of course black people will proportionately suffer more but saying a whole legislation is made to further kill black people is quite... Surreal.
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    by » Sat May 25th, 2019, 13:34

    Whether one agrees with abortion or not it should not be a criminal offence. We should not be jailing doctors for 99 years or women having terminations.

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